T Nation

Estradiol: Why You Should Care


#743

The experience here is that guys get problems with libido, energy, mood, initiative and tolerance with E2 anywhere near the top of the normal range* and levels that you suggest would be horrible. Some have reported that their wives’ thought that they were getting bitchy.

  • 39-42 pg/ml

You have suggested that a fixed E2 recommendation is wrong because T:E2 ratio is the goal. When you suggest E2=~70, you are contracting yourself because by your standards, you should be discussing the T doses and T lab levels of “your patients”. You also state elsewhere that you seek TT=1000-1200. This really does not sound right and is contradictory to the experiences of most guys here. Can you explain why you are seeking E2 levels that are a lot higher than lab normal ranges and levels that have produced/supported gyno?


#744

The problem with compounded T+anastrozole is that you can’t change your AI dose AND those that are anastrozole over-responders will have to throw the products out. T+aromasin has some of the same concerns. I do think that this is taking compounding a step too far.


#745

We can agree on this for sure


#746

I am not contradicting myself at all. Most of my patients feel best with an e2 around 70 according to urine testing. It isn’t the guidepost for us. We go off of feeling. E is always a result of t dose. Having above average t will result in above average e. It isn’t complicated. Don’t forget our patients almost all use daily tamoxifen. So no Gyno yet all the benefits of function.


#747

What are the e2 ranges in a urin test vs blood? I would think they would not be the same. In other words is everyone talking the same language here?


#748

Please qualify these things. No one here will be expecting urine based lab results, serum E2 spoken here so far.

Have you done urine and serum at the same time to get a feel for the ratio? As urine stores in the badder and water is absorbed, things get concentrated. What issues are there about that or can you compensate for dehydration? Do you have guys collect morning, random or 24 hour urine?

Are your comments above for TT all serum based?


#749

We do a four time collection throughout the day. The purpose of that is to tell not just the peaks and troughs of hormones but also their metabolism and excretion. The ranges are similar to blood but the info contained in the tests are extremely more valuable. Look into it yourself - DUTCH study.

https://dutchtest.com


#750

Interesting article. Today. On T Nation. What there is no estradiol sweet spot?! Who knew!!! Oh and it’s about the ratio of t to e!!! Wow where have people been hearing that lately.


#751

lol crickets.


#752

What are you looking for criticism?
I’m still curious about the ranges on a 24 hour urine test. And if there’s anything I would need to know about liver enzyme test


#753

The ranges vary with the other variables of testosterone. The key point ive tried over and over to make to you guys is there is no e2 “sweet spot” which this study echos.

As far as liver of course a comp met panel works but also you should look into your own personal history of alcohol, prescription drugs, heavy metals in your environment, etc.


#754

I’m going to assume that actually reading the study would be more informative. But going from that article if you’re operating at a level of say 850. There an ideal range for E2 ( a sweet spot)Though if you’re operating at 550 that range would be lower, operating at 1200 that range would be higher. And as the difference between those numbers is not that great using ratios you’re not talking about dramatic difference.

I can see where ideal ranges would not be carved in stone. They very with the testosterone levels. If you feel the need prevent gyno, that is an admission that you are above that ideal range. You simply have a different why of dealing with the problem. But you do see high E2 as a problem. The argument is not if excessive E2 is an issue. it’s what is excessive and what is the best way to deal with it.


#755

Thanks for the liver info. I have done my best to stress my poor liver. Injury leading to steroidal then none steroidal anti inflammatories in large quantities. Started that ball rolling. If I had known all the harm they were doing. I would have just felt the pain


#756

A quote from Crisler in an all things male thread on this is the following.

“Even so, I do not treat estrogen in absence of negative symptoms. Just as I would not add testosterone in absence of negative symptoms. In fact, if my patient, when asked, denies any symptoms which may be related to elevated E, I don’t even run the test(s). This saves money as well.”


#757

Exactly.


#758

Actually gyno is tricky. Some men have a higher predisposition regardless of being very out of range. A good rule of thumb - if a patient has a sister with larger than average breasts he typically will need tamoxifen.


#759

The good news is that the liver heals itself very quickly generally. I would worry more about adrenal issues from the Cort use. Another good reason to do the Dutch study.


#760

I can see where the women in the family would be a good indication. None of us went looking for low T. It was the symptoms that drove us. Basing treatment on symptoms fristthat only makes sense


#761

Please help!!

25 year old male, just had blood tests back today and myoestradiol is at 401…

Yes!!

401??? I need advice please.

I am currently taking 350mg tren and 350mg test per week. One injection per day.


#762

Honestly I think you should be talking to the guys into heavy gear at the Pharma forum. I assume you are in a cycle and are not regularly taking so much. 401 estradiol is not normal unless you are a pregnant woman.