woodye, This is a sticky and your personal details should never be posted here. The sticky is for facts and clarifications. Please create your own thread after reading the advice for new guys sticky.
so does this mean when my test levels are high thats why im havn ed issues and when they come back down to 200 to 400 everything works great?
above should not be in a sticky!
Is there really no reliable OTC AI? What about DIM or Indole-3 Carbinol or something like that?
I’m nervous about pushing for anastrozole… one of those “be careful what you wish for” things. I’ve read other people’s cases about taking anastrozole, and while it has helped some, it has hurt others because they over-responded.
Would it be logical to start very low, at 0.25 mg/wk using drops, instead of 1 mg/wk? For argument’s sake, let’s say 1 ml = 24 drops. Instead of doing 24 drops a week, start with 6 drops… something like 3 drops E3D, or 2 drops EOD. Run that for 2-4 weeks, test E2 and/or monitor libido, then add 2 more drops per week until E2 is 22 pg/ml?
What do you guys think?
Sure, you can explore lower doses and see what your response is.
Over responders can stop and things will normalize soon enough. Its not the end of the world.
[quote]happydog48 wrote:
Estradiol is an estrogen. It is known on blood tests as E2. Many people (even doctors) simply call it estrogen.
Why it Matters
There are basically two reasons we care about estradiol.
The first is that E2 is a powerful testosterone receptor antagonist. What this means is that estradiol binds to androgen receptors and renders them useless. When testosterone binds to an androgen receptor, it activates the receptor and you get the effect you’re looking for. When estradiol binds to that receptor, it blocks testosterone from binding, yet it does not active the receptor, so nothing happens.
This means that if your estradiol is high, no matter how much testosterone you have, it isn’t helping you as it should because too many of your androgen receptors are blocked by estradiol and your free testosterone has no where to go. Testosterone can’t do you any good if it doesn’t have receptors available to activate.
It can even get worse… because high levels of estradiol can cause the downregulation of androgen receptors. This means that your body may respond to higher levels of estradiol by creating fewer androgen receptors as cells are replaced in normal regeneration. In other words, not only does estradiol block the available androgen receptors, it causes your body to produce fewer of them in the future! This is one reason why raising testosterone levels may not have any immediate effect. It may be that your receptors have downregulated and so you’ll need to lower estradiol and increase testosterone in order to get your body to upregulate again and this takes time.
The second reason we care about estradiol is that you also have estrogen receptors and estradiol binds to them and causes them to activate. This is fine if you want to grow man boobs, store fat on your belly, and have an enlarged prostate, but not so good if you want to look and feel like a man.
Where It Comes From
Brushing aside the highly controversial subject of environmental estrogens, the primary pathway for estradiol production is via the conversion of testosterone by aromatase. This means that the aromatase enzyme binds to testosterone and chemically converts it to estradiol. Think about that for a minute. Realize that this conversion is a double whammy. In one process you’re losing T and gaining E. Obviously this is not good.
This is where aromatase inhibitors (AI) like anastrozole (brand name Arimidex - aka “adex” etc.) come into the picture. They bind to the aromatase enzyme and prevent it from converting your testosterone to estradiol. They do not work directly on estradiol nor on estrogen receptors. It is SERM’s like Clomid and Nolvadex that bind to estrogen receptors. SERM’s and AI’s are different animals, so don’t get them confused.
So an AI gives you the double whammy in reverse. It prevents the loss of testosterone to conversion and consequently lowers your estradiol which helps keep your androgen receptors available for testosterone.
E Follows T
Here’s where doctors fuck up. They forget that E follows T. As your T levels go up, so will your E levels. If you’re not doing something to control your E (like taking an AI) then you aren’t really going to get anywhere with higher T levels because your higher E levels are just going to cancel out any beneficial effect from the T. Like I said, your T can’t do you any good if all your androgen receptors are bound with estradiol.
For those of us with “age related” low T, this is a serious issue because our bodies are naturally trying to keep T low and E high by pumping out aromatase.
If you’re younger and have low T for some other reason, aromatase may not be as much of an issue, but it still matters.
Fat
Fat produces estrogen and aromatase; even in men. If you’re carrying extra fat, one of the best things you can do to help your hormone balance is to lose the fat.
In Range does not equal Normal
One of the problems you’re likely to face is the problem of doctors believing that any blood test value that is “in range” is “normal” and therefor fine. I wish it was that simple.
Let’s look at testosterone values. The range for Quest is 241-847 ng/dL. But those values are derived simply by looking at the values of everyone who has a blood test for testosterone. What’s normal for a younger man is to be in the higher end of the range. What’s normal for an older man is to be in the lower end of the range. Well low T might be “normal” but that doesn’t mean it’s good! I may be an older guy, but why should I be happy with low T simply because it’s normal? ALL men of all ages should be in the higher end of the range if they want to feel good and perform athletically and sexually as men.
The same holds true for estradiol. The range is 13-54 pg/mL but “normal” young men are at the low end of the range and that’s where you want to be as well.
Trust me, if your T is 250 and your E is 50, you may be “in range” for both values, but you aren’t going to feel good or have anywhere near the athletic and sexual performance that would have if your T was 800 and your E was 15.
Natural Variation
All populations exhibit variation. The average height for men might be 5’ 10" but we all know guys who are much taller and much shorter. This same variation applies to T levels, E levels, and reactions to various therapies. In other words, while the principals I’ve outlined hold true in general, how they specifically apply to you will vary. Be smart and deal with it.
[/quote]
Since we believe estradiol blocks the available androgen receptors and does causes the body to produce fewer of them in the future, can this be reversed?
I’ve heard increasing zinc intake through foods would help, is this true?
Would solid deadlift and squat lifts help increase androgen receptors?
1 Like
Receptors are renewed all of the time. A healthy metabolism is probably the key issue. And cell wall structure and permeability. Now that leads to dietary/nutritional issues and healthy fats. Your health is a composite of the health of your individual cells.
Enough zinc is enough. Too much blocks absorption of other minerals. Zinc it self will never by it self resolve high elevated E2 levels. It can have some effect, but not sufficient. Liver function/health is a huge factor. Some gear can lead to very high E2 levels.
There is no reason to thinks so. But physical activity does have its benefits.
1 Like
Hi everyone,
Definitively a great thread. I bumped into this by looking for reasons why some guys aromatize more than others. My case for example is that just after one hour of a shot start feeling the symptoms of estrogen going up. That is why I moved to the SQ EOD protocol this week to no avail.
I don´t want to put my case here because this is a sticky, so my question is if I understood correctly that guys who over react to testosterone (in the sense that estradiol goes up really quickly) is because of something going on in the liver?
Could somebody explain more in detail what could this be and what (if any) could be done?
Because, otherwise, for people like me, TRT could be doomed because on top it seems that my body somehow is adapting to aromasin (which is what I take for E control). First doses were like great, overnight control, but more recently I need more and more to keep E under control (and I am definitively worry for the long term effect of examestane).
Thanks
You need labs at this point. You might be feeling E2 getting too low.
Thanks KSman,
I have bloodwork almost every week, mainly E2. I have the advantage of living in a developing country where labs are relatively cheap and you do not need recipes to buy medicines (so I can try any testosterone or AI I wish among the available ones just by asking for them AND PAYING of course).
I have to say I found out a clear pattern for my E2 after every Testosterone shot. For my most recent protocol I used to inject 250 mg Sustanon every two weeks and right after the injection (about 1 hour later) I started feeling 1) a burning sensation on the left side of my face 2) became very irritable. One or two days later the E2 came up about 65 (should be less than 54, although just above 25 is poison for me), and 3) bye bye libido and ME.
After 3 days of aromasin my E2 used to return to 20 and everything return to normal (burning sensation, irritability, ME and libido). However, the doses of aromasin had to increase to keep E under control. So it occurred to me to take 1 full pill of aromasin (.25 mg) a couple of hours before my Sust. injection and it worked the first time although the weekly bloodwork came at 35 1 week after the shot.
The second time the aromasin pill didnt work and E2 increased the very same day. It took 4 consecutive .25 mg pills (in 4 days) to erase the effects of E2 and take it to 16.
I don´t know why but the minute the testosterone enters my system E2 goes up accordingly. That is why I switched to SQ EOD 40mg of test. enanthate this very same week on wednesday and 1 hour after the shot again same symptoms. I had to take again 1 pill on thursday and it controlled the symptoms so far (even though I took another SQ shot on friday, so there seems to be some future here, but too soon to say).
That is why I am trying to understand why some people aromatize much more than others…and
why would the AI keeps losing power…and
long term effects of AI (worried about a potential arthritis when I reach 60 IF I reach 60 (I am 37))…
It has taken sometime for me to understand this whole situation. I have gone through Proviron, Sustanon, …pause (thrombosis because of high estradiol, although I didn´t know that back then)…test enanthate low concentration (250mg/3ml), sustanon (again), and now Primoteston depot (enanthate 250mg/1ml) since mid 2011 so almost two years and still haven´t been able to stabilize my system.
Hopefully I am following the forum rules, if not my apologies and correct me so that I line up for my next comment,
You should be taking this to your own thread as we are getting quite particular to your case. Start that and ping me at my ‘ksman is here’ thread.
I am wondering about the quality of the drugs that you are using… but we will not pursue that here.
Recently, I had a discussion with a T advisor explaining that my estradiol was probably to high since I had a good libido but zero erections, even with Viagra. I began taking Anastrozole .5mg per day after about the 3rd day I got a lift in libido and erections started to come on line. I continued the .5 Anastrozole and within a day I was back in the dumper.
Then I decided to stop Anastrozole assuming I pasted the sweet spot and drove my estradiol to low. This morning I felt like things were improving, and today is my scheduled .50 Cyp Sub-Q injection. I took it and boom back in the dumber.
So here’s my situation, in the dumper on Anastrozole, and in the dumper 20 minutes after T shot, is my estradiol to high or low or???
I would be grateful for any input on this apparent contradiction
Thanks
Thom
You are probably an anastrozole over-responder.
Thanks for the feedback. I guess I could be over responding, so I assume that it’s time to give the Anastrozole a break, since I’m not improving on it. I further assume that my estradiol could be to low at this point.
Next week I’ll have my blood work done and know truly what’s going on. But even with insurance it’s about $500.00 a pop, plus meds this low T thing adds up!!
Again thanks for the feedback and if you guys have any other thoughts I’d appreciate hearing them, thanks.
LEF.org lab work sale has been extended. Very affordable.
products | blood testing
pay out of pocket
You can do estradiol alone or the $199 male panel that is very comprehensive. Need to get membership for the good prices.
Suggest 5-6 days without anastrozole then start 0.25 mg/week in EOD divided doses. Can’t split pills that way, better to dispense by the drop with a liquid preparation. Dissolve in vodka or get a “research chemical anastrozole” product. Google the quoted phrase.
Do labs when on the above for a while. You need labs when you are on a dose to be able to calculate dose corrections. Testing when not dosing anastrozole does not have the same utility. If you feel better on the reduced dosing, you know that you are in the right ball park. Note that if you test when dose is too high and get a result like E2<7, you are flying blind and cannot do a dose calculation based on that.
LEF.org lab work sale has been extended. Very affordable.
products | blood testing
pay out of pocket
You can do estradiol alone or the $199 male panel that is very comprehensive. Need to get membership for the good prices.
Suggest 5-6 days without anastrozole then start 0.25 mg/week in EOD divided doses. Can’t split pills that way, better to dispense by the drop with a liquid preparation. Dissolve in vodka or get a “research chemical anastrozole” product. Google the quoted phrase.
Do labs when on the above for a while. You need labs when you are on a dose to be able to calculate dose corrections. Testing when not dosing anastrozole does not have the same utility. If you feel better on the reduced dosing, you know that you are in the right ball park. Note that if you test when dose is too high and get a result like E2<7, you are flying blind and cannot do a dose calculation based on that.
I know this is a sticky, but my thread has no response. Before TRT my estradiol hit 23.7 with low testosterone ( Free 5.7-7.0, Total 408-460 ). Now with TRT, estradiol 13.4 and no change from testosterone being 1163 and Free Testosterone being 24.5 24 hours before my next injection.
My question: Will stopping the anastrozole and allowing my Estradiol to go up, how high is ok? I imagine I will go to at least 24 or 25. Since my SHBG is at approx. 35, that means my estradiol can safely go to maybe 28 and cause no problems?
My body does not overly aromatize unless I inject alot at once ie 150mg. On first four weeks of 120mg T-cyp. weekly, my estradiol only hit 29 in combination with DHEA/Preg. cream.
Basically, my theory is reduced estrogen is preventing me from gaining any muscle and can’t get a pump in the gym.
Now that you have lab data, we can calculate your new anastrozole dose:
new = old * 13.4/22
Stop for 4 days then resume with new dose.
You should know this from the stickies. How much reading have you been doing?
If you are only injecting once a week, the lab values are sort of useless and anastrozole dosing is always somewhat bogus. If you have data in a thread, you need to at least link people to that.
[quote]KSman wrote:
Now that you have lab data, we can calculate your new anastrozole dose:
new = old * 13.4/22
Stop for 4 days then resume with new dose.
You should know this from the stickies. How much reading have you been doing?
If you are only injecting once a week, the lab values are sort of useless and anastrozole dosing is always somewhat bogus. If you have data in a thread, you need to at least link people to that.
[/quote]
I am injecting twice weekly. I’m gonna stop the anastrozole and DHEA/Preg. cream and see how I fare.
Now take this to your own thread.