T Nation

Ester vs. Ether


#1

To anyone who knows, especially Brock and Bill, what are the differences b/w A1E ether and A1E ethyl carbonate ester? Which is better, safer, longer-acting, more efficacious for mg used, etc. There are some other products on the market that appear to be ethyl carbonate ester (e.g.SANN)so I am a bit confused. Your help would be appreciated. Many thanks as always.
CB


#2

The SAN 4-androstenediol ethylcarbonate
product is so far as I know licensed
from Biotest.

As for using ethers instead of carbonate
esters, that was something I chose to
do for delivery of testosterone and nandrolone
for the T-17E and N-17E projects, because due to the wording of the law I could not do
carbonate (or any) esters but could do
ethers, but bypassing that loophole in the law is the only reason I'd prefer to do an ether over a carbonate ester for these compounds. It's not that the ether is terrible but it is dependent on an enzymatic conversion that typically (with other drugs) is limited, whereas ester hydrolysis is typically 100%. For example, codeine is the methyl ether of morphine but only about 10% is converted, which is why codeine is not anywhere near as potent as morphine. Or in the case of Biotest's Methoxy-7, the original ether form was only half as efficient as the current ethylcarbonate form and also had only half the duration of action.

I'm not saying an ether can't perform adequately well in this application, just that it is not in my opinion the preferred method (if it were, I would have done it.)


#3

But you did use the ethylcarbonate ester delivery system for Mag-10 and 4-AD [brilliant choice I may add :slightly_smiling: ]. So obviously is isn't illegal for use on these products. Why?


#4

Bill,

What do you think of the propyl carbonate esters that are out by people like VPX? Any differences that you know of in efficacy between proypl and ethel carbonate? Also, are the esters, ether and or base better for topical agents? I would assume the base product would be better because of the lower molecular weight.

EDog


#5

Cloakmanor, the reason is that the Controlled Substances Act makes testosterone, nandrolone, and esters of these controlled susbtances; but not ethers. So esters would have been illegal but not ethers. In the case of 4-AD and androst-1-ene, the parent substances aren't controlled -- are legal under DSHEA -- and so the esters are legal too.

Edog, you're correct that a slightly smaller
percentage of the weight will be the parent steroid with propyl carbonates instead of ethyl carbonates. In my opinion they are selling (or claiming to sell) the propyl carbonate in a mistaken notion that they thus escape the Biotest patent. That is not so: our patent application covers the propyl as well.


#6

So your patent covers all the carbonate esters then? This business is really filled with conflicting information. Do you think the 1-Test transdermal products are any good? I like the idea of transdermals to supplement the Mag-10 cycle that I am on. Let me know what you think. BTW do you ever make it up to Michigan?

EDog


#7

is the 1-test ethylcarbonate ester from kilo sports the same product as in mag-10? and would putting it in a capsule be effective??


#8

Bill in line with a previous question, would using a A1E powder mixed in w/ androsol be carried through more efficiently than an encapsulated A1E? What would be a good amount of powder to use per bottle? I realize Mag-10 would be the best way to go, but I've got a bunch of Androsol lying around and would like to spice it up a bit. Thanks for the help.


#9

Why isn't there A1E sold like 4ADEC?


#10

Edog, yes, the patent covers all the carbonate esters. As for transdermal "1-test" products (just for the sake of clarification though I'm repeating myself: the compound in question, 17b-hydroxyandrost-1-ene-3-one or androst-1-ene for short is not a testosterone) has good enough oral bioavailability even without the ethylcarbonate that I don't see the point in a transdermal. Nor, if there's a question of getting more into the system, is there a point: just take more of the oral.

Popasquat, I'm not familiar with what Kilosports is selling. If they are selling "1-testosterone" ethylcarbonate ester then yes, they are ripping off my invention. It is legal to do so until such point as the patent is issued as opposed to applied for. Of course, by ripping us off at this point, they're assuring that Biotest won't license to them after the patent has been issued. Some companies have more interest in short term gain than long-term interest (I don't know if Kilosports is an example because I don't know the facts of this case) whereas others think more in the long term.

A capsule should be effective but not as efficient as MAG-10 due to poorer absorption compared to the liquid form.

Marc, if you were spicing Androsol up with some androst-1-ene powder, well, actually I'd just take the powder orally. But in capsules: the "1-test" powder burns horrifically. (By the way, in my opinion the residual spicy taste in MAG-10 is due to truly trace amounts of unesterified androst-1-ene, below the limits of detection in our analyses. When you have a compound with an extremely strong taste, then even a small amount like one part in 10,000 or even in a million sometimes can still be quite significant particularly when in liquid.)


D Rock, A1-E might be sold separately in a liquid formulation if it were thought there were sufficient demand for it, but the thought tends to be that most would rather have the whole deal with MAG-10.