T Nation

Escalation in Israel

I’m surprised that a thread about the latest developments/devolvements in Israel hasn’t popped up already. What do you guys think about what’s going on there?

I can’t help but think that this latest episode has highlighted a very basic similarity between Israelis and Palestinians. The extremist wings of each group seem to be ruining any sort of chance at peace between them. Hamas and the Israeli settlers who are responsible for burning a Palestinian boy alive are of the same ilk as far as I’m concerned.

What I fail to understand is why we consider Israel a democracy. In what democracy is it acceptable to go door-to-door and detain people simply because they are of the same ethnicity as the suspects involved in a heinous crime? What would happen in this country if my twins were kidnapped by a couple of blacks and then Mean Mother Green and Her Killing Machine rolled into East Oakland and detained every suspected black gang member, while also blowing up a few problematic housing projects along the way?

I don’t blame Israelis for their reaction. I don’t live there, never been, don’t plan on going anytime soon. So I can’t pretend to grasp their mindset. At the same time, why do we unequivocally back Israel? Sure, you’ll hear the occasional condemnation from politicians, but when push comes to shove, we’re still in their corner rather than sitting ringside as a passive spectator. What do we really stand to gain by supporting them, or anyone else in that region?

If we operate under the premise that extremist Jewish settlers like the ones responsible for this Palestinian boy’s death are no better than the Hamas supporters who are most likely responsible for the earlier kidnappings, shouldn’t we demand an immediate and unambiguous rejection of Jewish settlements the same way that we demand Arab governments condemn Hamas and Arab extremism? Shouldn’t we be threatening to withdraw aid to Israel the same way we removed it from Egypt?

I’ll have one post on this.

First, contrast the kidnapping/murder of the 3 Yeshiva students (one of which is American) and the murder of the arab boy.

The arab officials celebrating the kidnapping, the muslim religious leaders celebrated the murders, the arab media celebrated teh kidnappings, the arab population celebrated the kidnappings, and they generally thought the murder of the 3 boys was great. They sheltered the killers. In short, it was not a "fringe’ part of the arabs. It was mainstream.

The murder of the arab boy, in contrast, was condemned for what it was — murder — by the Israeli government, religious leaders, media, and people. The Israeli police arrested the alleged murderers and they are sure to face justice.

The arabs don’t care, however.

In fact, one of the mothers of 3 Yeshiva boys tried to come by with flowers for the mother of the arab boy; she was turned away by rock throwers. The arab boy’s mother was on the BBC yesterday saying she “didn’t want flowers; she wanted dead Jews.”

So, yes, there is no moral equivalency here.

++++++++++

Regarding the lie that Israel does not want peace or a PA state. Well, a PA state has been offered hundreds of times. In fact, it started out that way — a PA state and a Jewish state.

The arabs flatly refused to permit a Jewish state to exist and continue to refuse today.

That is the sole serious issue; the rest could be handled by a couple of surveyors, some emails, a couple of real estate appraisals, and a little cash going both ways to private landowners. Texas and Oklahoma have more complicated land owning issues along the Red River.

I don’t get it Israel , goes in Bulldozes houses , sets up blockades (literally starvings) Palestine and now is bombing Palestine because of Hamas and some other radical faction . And then wonders why Palestine does not like them

I am not sure any one could explain that to me ?

There are sure enough hostilities going on with both sides. But Israel is still the closest thing there is to a democracy in the region, the only game in town if you will.

I have a customer just outside of Tel Aviv… their parking lot has craters in it from Palestinian rocket attacks. This type of behavior is normal for both sides. Some of the youth, this is how they have grown up and this is all they know.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I don’t get it Israel , goes in Bulldozes houses , sets up blockades (literally starvings) Palestine and now is bombing Palestine because of Hamas and some other radical faction . And then wonders why Palestine does not like them

I am not sure any one could explain that to me ?[/quote]

Since the day after the formation of the modern state of Israel, the Arabs have waged incessant war against the Jews. People can debate the reasons why until the cows come home but it will not change the fact that the Arabs do not want peace with Israel, only their destruction.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
I’m surprised that a thread about the latest developments/devolvements in Israel hasn’t popped up already. What do you guys think about what’s going on there?

[/quote]

A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The frog asks, “How do I know you won’t sting me?” The scorpion says, “Because if I do, I will die too.”

The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown, but has just enough time to gasp “Why?”

Replies the scorpion: “It is my nature…”

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
(literally starvings) Palestine
[/quote]
This is just a lie. There is plenty of food in Gaza/West Bank.

The Palestinians have been killing Jews long before the Jews starting shooting back. The entire conflict started when the Muslims decided they could not tolerate a Jewish state.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I don’t get it Israel , goes in Bulldozes houses , sets up blockades (literally starvings) Palestine and now is bombing Palestine because of Hamas and some other radical faction . And then wonders why Palestine does not like them

I am not sure any one could explain that to me ?[/quote]

It put up blockades to stop suicide bombers from blowing up buses full of Israelis. That’s why they are blockaded, constant unstoped suicide bombings.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
sets up blockades (literally starvings) Palestine [/quote]

Sorry, this was just such a bald face lie, I couldn’t leave it alone.

Here:

Gaza/West bank has the 8th highest obesity rate in the world among men and the 3rd highest in the world among women with about half of the women being obese (higher than the USA)

http://www.economist.com/node/8846631

Maybe it’s because the fast food restaurants all over Gaza/West Bank like, say Pizza Hut and Kentucky Fried Chicken:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/02/kfc-pizza-hut-in-the-palestinian-territories.html

Seriously Pitt, are you a just a tremendous liar or just misinformed?

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
I don’t blame Israelis for their reaction. I don’t live there, never been, don’t plan on going anytime soon. So I can’t pretend to grasp their mindset. At the same time, why do we unequivocally back Israel? Sure, you’ll hear the occasional condemnation from politicians, but when push comes to shove, we’re still in their corner rather than sitting ringside as a passive spectator. What do we really stand to gain by supporting them, or anyone else in that region?
[/quote]

The USA was instrumental in the creation of modern Israel so there is a sense of duty to protect what we helped create. Israeli culture is also more similar to American culture than Arab culture, so they’re natural allies. Israel is a much more reliable partner than any of the Arab states considered allies.

Supporting Israel is also the best way for the US to keep it’s hegemony over the Middle East. The Middle East is important for myriad reasons so it makes sense that the world superpower maintains a presence so we can better influence events in our favor. US intervention hasn’t really worked out for us in recent history, but I think that’s more to do with being foolish and executing poorly. I don’t think ignoring the Middle East and just watching is good for the US.

Not to mention the political factor. It’s easier to get votes and money if you’re perceived to be a staunch supporter of Israel. Being anti-Israel is political suicide for most politicians.

Bottom line is Israeli’s are closer to us culturally and are much more advanced and civilized than the Palestinians. It’s also clear that Palestinian leadership is a joke and doesn’t have much interest in mutual peace. Everything would be much better if it was just accepted that Israel is here to stay. There’s no use in wishing for a Jew-free Middle East because it just isn’t going to happen at this point.

Jewbacca already made the point about moral equivalency. The burning of the Palestinian boy was barbaric but that’s not accepted or applauded by mainstream Israeli’s. Any type of barbarism should be condemned, but it doesn’t happen enough on the Palestinian side.

I am not a blind Israel supporter and I recognize the injustice many Palestinians have endured. I think the expanding settlements are a real problem and should be stopped. But Palestinian leadership sucks and they don’t even attempt to engage in constructive solutions. They make the problem worse and I think that some may even welcome Israeli barbarism because they can use that for propaganda.

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

Seriously Pitt, are you a just a tremendous liar or just misinformed?[/quote]

75% of his statements are regurgitations of misinformation. The remaining 25% are manufactured wholesale in the deepest recesses of his neurocortex, spun out of magical strands of sweet cannabinoid vapor.

It’s like when I went to see a Timothy Leary and G. Gordon Liddy debate. Liddy had asked Leary a question, which Leary had started to answer, then his reply got fuzzier and fuzzier, until he lost the thread of what he was saying and trailed off into jibberish.

Liddy looked at him for a few moments, then turned to us and said, “and here, ladies and gentlemen, is the strongest argument against substance abuse I can imagine. It isn’t that he’s deranged, he’s simply damaged!”

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
I’m surprised that a thread about the latest developments/devolvements in Israel hasn’t popped up already. What do you guys think about what’s going on there?

[/quote]

A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The frog asks, “How do I know you won’t sting me?” The scorpion says, “Because if I do, I will die too.”

The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown, but has just enough time to gasp “Why?”

Replies the scorpion: “It is my nature…”
[/quote]

Considering your stance in the Transgender Priest thread, I find the fact that this parable was featured in The Crying Game delightfully ironic.

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
I’ll have one post on this.

First, contrast the kidnapping/murder of the 3 Yeshiva students (one of which is American) and the murder of the arab boy.

The arab officials celebrating the kidnapping, the muslim religious leaders celebrated the murders, the arab media celebrated teh kidnappings, the arab population celebrated the kidnappings, and they generally thought the murder of the 3 boys was great. They sheltered the killers. In short, it was not a "fringe’ part of the arabs. It was mainstream.

The murder of the arab boy, in contrast, was condemned for what it was — murder — by the Israeli government, religious leaders, media, and people. The Israeli police arrested the alleged murderers and they are sure to face justice.

The arabs don’t care, however.

In fact, one of the mothers of 3 Yeshiva boys tried to come by with flowers for the mother of the arab boy; she was turned away by rock throwers. The arab boy’s mother was on the BBC yesterday saying she “didn’t want flowers; she wanted dead Jews.”

So, yes, there is no moral equivalency here.

++++++++++

Regarding the lie that Israel does not want peace or a PA state. Well, a PA state has been offered hundreds of times. In fact, it started out that way — a PA state and a Jewish state.

The arabs flatly refused to permit a Jewish state to exist and continue to refuse today.

That is the sole serious issue; the rest could be handled by a couple of surveyors, some emails, a couple of real estate appraisals, and a little cash going both ways to private landowners. Texas and Oklahoma have more complicated land owning issues along the Red River.
[/quote]

Your refusal to capitalize Arabs or Muslims tells me all I need to know about your stance.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
I’ll have one post on this.

First, contrast the kidnapping/murder of the 3 Yeshiva students (one of which is American) and the murder of the arab boy.

The arab officials celebrating the kidnapping, the muslim religious leaders celebrated the murders, the arab media celebrated teh kidnappings, the arab population celebrated the kidnappings, and they generally thought the murder of the 3 boys was great. They sheltered the killers. In short, it was not a "fringe’ part of the arabs. It was mainstream.

The murder of the arab boy, in contrast, was condemned for what it was — murder — by the Israeli government, religious leaders, media, and people. The Israeli police arrested the alleged murderers and they are sure to face justice.

The arabs don’t care, however.

In fact, one of the mothers of 3 Yeshiva boys tried to come by with flowers for the mother of the arab boy; she was turned away by rock throwers. The arab boy’s mother was on the BBC yesterday saying she “didn’t want flowers; she wanted dead Jews.”

So, yes, there is no moral equivalency here.

++++++++++

Regarding the lie that Israel does not want peace or a PA state. Well, a PA state has been offered hundreds of times. In fact, it started out that way — a PA state and a Jewish state.

The arabs flatly refused to permit a Jewish state to exist and continue to refuse today.

That is the sole serious issue; the rest could be handled by a couple of surveyors, some emails, a couple of real estate appraisals, and a little cash going both ways to private landowners. Texas and Oklahoma have more complicated land owning issues along the Red River.
[/quote]

Your refusal to capitalize Arabs or Muslims tells me all I need to know about your stance.[/quote]

Would you show respect to a group of people who murdered your family? Moron.

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
I’ll have one post on this.

First, contrast the kidnapping/murder of the 3 Yeshiva students (one of which is American) and the murder of the arab boy.

The arab officials celebrating the kidnapping, the muslim religious leaders celebrated the murders, the arab media celebrated teh kidnappings, the arab population celebrated the kidnappings, and they generally thought the murder of the 3 boys was great. They sheltered the killers. In short, it was not a "fringe’ part of the arabs. It was mainstream.

The murder of the arab boy, in contrast, was condemned for what it was — murder — by the Israeli government, religious leaders, media, and people. The Israeli police arrested the alleged murderers and they are sure to face justice.

The arabs don’t care, however.

In fact, one of the mothers of 3 Yeshiva boys tried to come by with flowers for the mother of the arab boy; she was turned away by rock throwers. The arab boy’s mother was on the BBC yesterday saying she “didn’t want flowers; she wanted dead Jews.”

So, yes, there is no moral equivalency here.

++++++++++

Regarding the lie that Israel does not want peace or a PA state. Well, a PA state has been offered hundreds of times. In fact, it started out that way — a PA state and a Jewish state.

The arabs flatly refused to permit a Jewish state to exist and continue to refuse today.

That is the sole serious issue; the rest could be handled by a couple of surveyors, some emails, a couple of real estate appraisals, and a little cash going both ways to private landowners. Texas and Oklahoma have more complicated land owning issues along the Red River.
[/quote]

Your refusal to capitalize Arabs or Muslims tells me all I need to know about your stance.[/quote]

Would you show respect to a group of people who murdered your family? Moron.
[/quote]

No, that’s why I never capitalize “asian,” because my uncle was killed in vietnam (also not capitalized).

More importantly, if one is describing the murder of a kid, and, in an attempt at belittlement, one intentionally refuses to capitalize a proper-noun descriptor of the victim’s ethnicity while at the same time capitalizing other proper nouns correctly, one is a legitimate target of criticism.

Moron.

[I say this while agreeing with the pro-Israel position in this thread.]

Edited to temper undue harshness

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
I’ll have one post on this.

First, contrast the kidnapping/murder of the 3 Yeshiva students (one of which is American) and the murder of the arab boy.

The arab officials celebrating the kidnapping, the muslim religious leaders celebrated the murders, the arab media celebrated teh kidnappings, the arab population celebrated the kidnappings, and they generally thought the murder of the 3 boys was great. They sheltered the killers. In short, it was not a "fringe’ part of the arabs. It was mainstream.

The murder of the arab boy, in contrast, was condemned for what it was — murder — by the Israeli government, religious leaders, media, and people. The Israeli police arrested the alleged murderers and they are sure to face justice.

The arabs don’t care, however.

In fact, one of the mothers of 3 Yeshiva boys tried to come by with flowers for the mother of the arab boy; she was turned away by rock throwers. The arab boy’s mother was on the BBC yesterday saying she “didn’t want flowers; she wanted dead Jews.”

So, yes, there is no moral equivalency here.

++++++++++

Regarding the lie that Israel does not want peace or a PA state. Well, a PA state has been offered hundreds of times. In fact, it started out that way — a PA state and a Jewish state.

The arabs flatly refused to permit a Jewish state to exist and continue to refuse today.

That is the sole serious issue; the rest could be handled by a couple of surveyors, some emails, a couple of real estate appraisals, and a little cash going both ways to private landowners. Texas and Oklahoma have more complicated land owning issues along the Red River.
[/quote]

Your refusal to capitalize Arabs or Muslims tells me all I need to know about your stance.[/quote]

Would you show respect to a group of people who murdered your family? Moron.
[/quote]

No, that’s why I never capitalize “asian,” because my uncle was killed in vietnam (also not capitalized).

More importantly, if one is describing the murder of a kid, and, in an attempt at belittlement, one intentionally refuses to capitalize a proper-noun descriptor of the victim’s ethnicity while at the same time capitalizing other proper nouns correctly, one is a legitimate target of criticism.

Moron.

[I say this while agreeing with the pro-Israel position in this thread.]

Edited to temper undue harshness[/quote]

You believe there is a moral equivalency between blowing up civilians on a bus and killing an enemy soldier on a battlefield? Really?

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
I’ll have one post on this.

First, contrast the kidnapping/murder of the 3 Yeshiva students (one of which is American) and the murder of the arab boy.

The arab officials celebrating the kidnapping, the muslim religious leaders celebrated the murders, the arab media celebrated teh kidnappings, the arab population celebrated the kidnappings, and they generally thought the murder of the 3 boys was great. They sheltered the killers. In short, it was not a "fringe’ part of the arabs. It was mainstream.

The murder of the arab boy, in contrast, was condemned for what it was — murder — by the Israeli government, religious leaders, media, and people. The Israeli police arrested the alleged murderers and they are sure to face justice.

The arabs don’t care, however.

In fact, one of the mothers of 3 Yeshiva boys tried to come by with flowers for the mother of the arab boy; she was turned away by rock throwers. The arab boy’s mother was on the BBC yesterday saying she “didn’t want flowers; she wanted dead Jews.”

So, yes, there is no moral equivalency here.

++++++++++

Regarding the lie that Israel does not want peace or a PA state. Well, a PA state has been offered hundreds of times. In fact, it started out that way — a PA state and a Jewish state.

The arabs flatly refused to permit a Jewish state to exist and continue to refuse today.

That is the sole serious issue; the rest could be handled by a couple of surveyors, some emails, a couple of real estate appraisals, and a little cash going both ways to private landowners. Texas and Oklahoma have more complicated land owning issues along the Red River.
[/quote]

Your refusal to capitalize Arabs or Muslims tells me all I need to know about your stance.[/quote]

Would you show respect to a group of people who murdered your family? Moron.
[/quote]

And yet, here he is wondering why Palestinians aren’t receptive towards Israelis showing up on their doorsteps with flowers. And it wasn’t ALL Arabs or Muslims who did this, but he’s lumped them all into the same category. That is the mindset in Israel. Moron.

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
I’ll have one post on this.

First, contrast the kidnapping/murder of the 3 Yeshiva students (one of which is American) and the murder of the arab boy.

The arab officials celebrating the kidnapping, the muslim religious leaders celebrated the murders, the arab media celebrated teh kidnappings, the arab population celebrated the kidnappings, and they generally thought the murder of the 3 boys was great. They sheltered the killers. In short, it was not a "fringe’ part of the arabs. It was mainstream.

The murder of the arab boy, in contrast, was condemned for what it was — murder — by the Israeli government, religious leaders, media, and people. The Israeli police arrested the alleged murderers and they are sure to face justice.

The arabs don’t care, however.

In fact, one of the mothers of 3 Yeshiva boys tried to come by with flowers for the mother of the arab boy; she was turned away by rock throwers. The arab boy’s mother was on the BBC yesterday saying she “didn’t want flowers; she wanted dead Jews.”

So, yes, there is no moral equivalency here.

++++++++++

Regarding the lie that Israel does not want peace or a PA state. Well, a PA state has been offered hundreds of times. In fact, it started out that way — a PA state and a Jewish state.

The arabs flatly refused to permit a Jewish state to exist and continue to refuse today.

That is the sole serious issue; the rest could be handled by a couple of surveyors, some emails, a couple of real estate appraisals, and a little cash going both ways to private landowners. Texas and Oklahoma have more complicated land owning issues along the Red River.
[/quote]

Your refusal to capitalize Arabs or Muslims tells me all I need to know about your stance.[/quote]

Would you show respect to a group of people who murdered your family? Moron.
[/quote]

No, that’s why I never capitalize “asian,” because my uncle was killed in vietnam (also not capitalized).

More importantly, if one is describing the murder of a kid, and, in an attempt at belittlement, one intentionally refuses to capitalize a proper-noun descriptor of the victim’s ethnicity while at the same time capitalizing other proper nouns correctly, one is a legitimate target of criticism.

Moron.

[I say this while agreeing with the pro-Israel position in this thread.]

Edited to temper undue harshness[/quote]

You believe there is a moral equivalency between blowing up civilians on a bus and killing an enemy soldier on a battlefield? Really?
[/quote]

No, I believe that it is stupid to hold races and groups responsible for the things some of their members do. Really.

Again, If one is describing the murder of a kid, and, in an attempt at belittlement, one intentionally refuses to capitalize a proper-noun descriptor of the victim’s ethnicity while at the same time capitalizing other proper nouns correctly, one is a legitimate target of criticism.

You disagree?