T Nation

EQ Vs. Deca


#1

ok, this has sparked some questions. i've used both nandrolone and boldanone with great results, but am curious to see why one is better than the other for strength and endurance. deca is used to treat anemia as eq is was used to treat it in horses... so what is better and why? thanx


#2

This question will get a lot of subjective replies, mainly d/t each person's goals being different. Now objectively, you can look at the literature that's available and determine which is better on paper for certain things. For example, boldenone und increases procollagenIII levels, which are a prime indicator of collagen synthesis, by about 340% when adm. at 2-3mg/kg. Nandrolone increases procollagenIII levels by 270%. So in that regard, eq is the superior drug. See what I'm getting at?
I personally like eq for the dry look that it gives, deca bloats me too much.

MK


#3

Any side effects with EQ? I've took deca before and it bloats me also. I guess the real reason that we (gym friends) took the deca was because it a much more safer version to getting large.
Give me a response when you get time. Thanks.
JW


#4

Mike Katz,

here did you find that info? that loooks to be an interesting read...

Cat,

info for comparison (i think one of the biggest differences is that Deca can convert to progestrone, whereas EQ can convert to extrogen. obviously estrogen is much easier to combat...)

EQ: It is also interesting to note that methandrostenolone (D-bol) is structurally identical to boldenone (EQ), except that it contains the added c17 alpha alkyl group discussed above.

Equipoise (boldenone undecylenate)

Quick overview:

Active Life: 14-16 days
Drug Class: Anabolic/Androgenic Steroid (for injection)
Average Dose: Men 400-600 mg/week......Women 50-150 mg/week
Acne: Rare
Water Retention: Low
High Blood Pressure: Rare
Liver Toxic: No
Aromatization: Some, about 50% less than testosterone
DHT Conversion: Low
Decrease HPTA function: Moderate

Equipoise? is the popular brand name for the veterinary injectable steroid boldenone undecylenate. It is a derivative of testosterone, which exhibits strong anabolic and moderately androgenic properties. The undecylenate ester greatly extends the activity of the drug (the undecylenate ester is only one carbon atom longer than decanoate), so that clinically injections would need to be repeated every three or four weeks. In the veterinary feild Equipoise is most commonly used on horses, exhibiting a pronounced effect on lean bodyweight, appetite and general disposition of the animal.

As with all steroids, this compound shows a marked ability for increasing red blood cell production. In recent years this compound has become a favorite among athletes. Many consider it an ideal replacement to Deca-Durabolin.

The side effects of Equipoise are generally mild. The structure of boldenone does allow it to convert into estrogen, but it does not have an extremely high affinity to do so. If we look at aromatization studies, they suggest that its rate of estrogen conversion should be about half that of testosterone's. Water retention with this drug would therefore be slightly higher than that with Deca-Durabolin (with an estimated 20% conversion), but much less than we would find with a stronger compound as Testosterone.

While there is still a chance of encountering an estrogen related side effect as such when using Equipoise, problems are usually not encountered at a moderate dosage level. Gynecomastia might become a problem, but usually only with very sensitive individuals or (again) with those using higher dosages. If estrogenic effects become a problem, the addition of Nolvadex should of course make the cycle more tolerable. An anti-aromatase such as Arimidex, Femara, or Amonasin would be a stronger option, however probably not necessary with such a mild drug.

Although typically dosage related, Equipoise can also produce distinct androgenic side effects. Oily skin, acne, increased aggression and hair loss are all possible with this compound. Women find this drug quite comfortable, virilization symptoms usually unheard of when taken at low doses.

Boldenone does reduce to a more potent androgen (dihydroboldenone) via the 5alpha reductase enzyme (which produces DHT from testosterone), however its affinity for this interaction in the human body is low to nonexistent. Therefore the reductase inhibitor Proscar would not be of much use with Equipoise, as it would be blocking what is at best an insignificant path of metabolism for the steroid.

Although this drug is relatively mild, it still has a depressive effect on endogenous testosterone levels, therefore a proper post cycle therapy HCG and Clomid/Nolvadex is needed at the conclusion of each cycle to avoid a "crash". A waiting time of around 3 weeks is required before starting PCT, enabling enough of the drug to clear one's system to make PCT effective.

In order to maintain stable blood levels, Equipoise should be injected at least once per week. It is most commonly used at a dosage of 400-600mg per week for men, 50-150 mg per week for women.

Equipoise is not a rapid mass builder, but will provide a slow but steady gain of strength and quality muscle mass. The most positive effects of this drug are seen when it is used for longer cycles, usually lasting at least 10 weeks in length. The muscle gained should not be the smooth bulk seen with androgens, but instead a very defined and solid look. Since water bloat is not contributing greatly to the diameter of the muscle, much of the size gained on a cycle of Equipoise can be retained after the drug has been discontinued. It is interesting to note that structurally Equipoise and the classic bulking drug Dianabol are almost identical.

In the case of Equipoise the compound uses a l7beta ester (undecylenate), while Dianabol is 17 alpha alkylated. Aside from that difference, the drugs are basically the same. Of course they act quite differently in the body, which goes to show the 17-methylation effects more than just the oral efficancy of a steroid.

As discussed earlier, Equipoise is a very versatile compound. We can create a number of drug combinations with it depending on the desired result. For mass, one may want to stack it with Anadrol or an injectable testosterone. The result should be an incredible gain of muscle size and strength, without the same intensity of side effects if using the androgen (at a higher dose) alone.

When used in a cutting cycle, muscle hardness and density can be greatly improved when combining Equipoise with a non-aromatizable steroid such as trenbolone acetate, Halotestin, or Winstrol. For some however, even the low buildup of estrogen associated with this compound is enough to relegate its use to bulking cycles only.

Equipoise is not an ideal steroid for the drug tested athlete however. This drug has the tendency to produce detectable metabolites in the urine months after use, a worry most commonly associated with Deca-Durabolin. This is of course due to the high oil solubility of long chain esterified injectable steroids, a property which enables the drug to remain deposited in fatty tissues for extended periods of time. While this will reliably slow the release of steroid into the blood stream, it also allows small residual amounts to remain present in the body far after the initial injection.

The release of stubborn stores of hormone would no doubt also be enhanced around contest time, a period when the athlete drastically attempts to mobilize unwanted body fat. If enough were used in the off-season, the athlete may actually fail a drug screen for boldenone although many months may have past since the drug was last injected.

Deca: Deca-Durabolin (nandrolone decanoate)

Quick overview:

Active Life: 14-16 days
Drug Class: Anabolic/Androgenic Steroid (injectable)
Average Dose: Men 300-800 mg/week.....Women 50-100 mg/week
Acne: Yes, in higher dosages or sensitive individuals
Water Retention: Yes, but less than testosterone
High Blood Pressure: Dose depandant
Liver Toxic: No
Aromatization: Low, converts to less active norestrogens
DHT Conversion: No, converts to NOR-DHT with low activity
Decrease HPTA function: Yes, extreme
Other Info: Highly anabolic/moderate androgenic effects

World wide "Deca" is one of the most widely used anabolic steroids. Its popularity is due to the simple fact that it exhibits many very favorable properties. Structurally nandrolone is very similar to testosterone, although it lacks a carbon atom at the 19th position (hence its other name 19-nortestosterone). The resulting structure is a steroid that exhibits much weaker androgenic properties than testosterone. Of primary interest is the fact that nandrolone will not break down to a more potent metabolite in androgen target tissues. You may remember this is a significant problem with testosterone. Although nandrolone does undergo reduction via the same (5-alpha reductase) enzyme that produces DHT from testosterone, the result in this case is dihydronandrolone. This metabolite is weaker than the parent nandroloness, and is far less likely to cause unwanted androgenic side effects. Strong occurrences of oily skin, acne, body/facial hair growth and hair loss occur very rarely. It is however possible for androgenic activity to become apparent with this as any steroid, but with nandrolone higher than normal doses are usually responsible.

Nandrolone also show an extremely lower tendency for estrogen conversion. For comparison, the rate has been estimated to be only about 20% of that seen with testosterones. This is because while the liver can convert nandrolone to estradiol, in other more active sites of steroid aromatization such as adipose tissue nandrolone is far less open to this process'. Consequently estrogen related side effects are a much lower concern with this drug. An anti-estrogen is likewise rarely needed with Deca, gynecomastia only a worry among sensitive individuals. At the same time water retention is not a usual concern. This effect can occur however, but is most often related to higher dosages. The addition of Proviron and/or Nolvadex should prove sufficient enough to significantly reduce any occurrence. Clearly Deca is a very safe choice among steroids. Actually, many consider it to be the best overall steroid for a man to use when weighing the side effects and results. It should also be noted that in HIV studies, Deca has been shown not only to be effective at safely bringing up the lean body weight of patient, but also to be beneficial to the immune system.

It is of note however that nandrolone is believed to have some activity as a progestin in the body. Although progesterone is a c-19 steroid, removal of this group as in 19-norprogesterone creates a hormone with greater binding affinity for its corresponding receptor. Sharing this trait, many 19-nor anabolic steroids are shown to have some affinity for the progesterone receptor as well. This can lead to some progestin-like activity in the body, and may intensify related side effects. The side effects associated with progesterone are actually quite similar to those of estrogen, including negative feedback inhibition of testosterone production, enhanced rate of fat storage and possibly gynecomastia. Many believe the progestin activity of Deca notably contributes to suppression of testosterone synthesis, which can be marked despite a low tendency for estrogen conversion.

Deca is not known as a very "fast" builder. The muscle building effect of this drug is quite noticeable, but not dramatic. The slow onset and mild properties of this steroid therefore make it more suited for cycles with a longer duration. In general one can expect to gain muscle weight at about half the rate of that with an equal amount of testosterone. A cycle lasting eight to twelve weeks seems to make the most sense, expecting to elicit a slow, even gain of quality mass. Although active in the body for much longer, Deca is usually injected once or twice per week. The dosage for men is usually in the range of 300-600mg/week. If looking to be specific, it is believed that Deca will exhibit its optimal effect (best gain/side effect ratio) at around 2mg per pound of lean bodyweight/weekly. Deca is also a popular steroid among female bodybuilders. They take a much lower dosage on average than men of course, usually around 50mg weekly. Although only slightly androgenic, women are occasionally confronted with virilization symptoms when taking this compound. Should this become a concern, the shorter acting nandrolone Durabolin would be a safer option. This drug stays active for only a few days, greatly reducing the impact of androgenic buildup if withdrawal were indicated.

Endogenous testosterone levels can be a concern with Deca-Durabolin, especially after long cycles. It is therefore mandatory to incorporate ancillary drugs at the conclusion of therapy. An estrogen antagonist such as Clomid or Nolvadex is therefore commonly used for a few weeks. These both provide a good level of testosterone stimulation, although they may take a couple of weeks to show the best effect. HCG injections could be added for extra reassurance, acting to rapidly restore the normal ability of the testes to respond to the resumed release of gonadotropins. For this purpose one could administer three injections of 2500-50001.U., spaced five days apart. After which point the antagonist is continued alone for a few more weeks in an effort to stabilize the production of testosterone. Remember not to begin post cycle therapy (PCT) until after Deca has been withdrawn for around three weeks. Deca stays active for quite some time so the ancillary drugs will not be able to exhibit their optimal effect when the steroid is still being released into the bloodstream. The major drawback for competitive purposes is that in many cases nandrolone metabolites will be detectable in a drug screen for up to a year (or more) after use. This is clearly due to the form of administration. Esterified compounds have a high affinity to stay stored in fatty tissues. While we can accurately estimate the time frame it will take for a given dose to enter circulation from an injection site, we cannot know for sure that 100% of the steroid will have been metabolized at any given point. Small amounts may indeed be stubborn in leaving fatty tissue, particularly after heavy, longer-term use. Some quantity of nandrolone decanoate may therefore be left to sporadically enter into the blood stream many months after use. This process may be further aggravated when dieting for a show, a time when body fat stores are being actively depleted (possibly freeing more steroid). This has no doubt been the cause for many unexpected positives on a drug screen. The fact that nandrolone has been isolated as the "hands-off" injectable for the drug tested athlete is most likely due to its popularity (and therefore common appearance on drug screens). The same risk would of course hold true for other long chain esterified injectables such as Equipoise, and Primobolan.

Those not worried about drug screens are likely to find the low water retention and good effect of this drug favorable for use in pre-contest cutting stacks. A combination of Deca and Winstrol during the weeks/months leading up to a show for example, is noted to greatly enhance to look of muscularity and definition. A strong non-aromatizing androgen like Halotestin or trenbolone could be further added, providing an enhanced level of hardness and density to the muscles. Being an acceptable anabolic, Deca can also be incorporated into bulk cycles with good results. The classic Deca and Dianabol cycle has been a basic for decades, and always seems to provide excellent muscle growth. A stronger androgen such as Anadrol or testosterone could also be substituted, producing greater results. When mixed with Deca, the androgen dosage can be kept lower than if used alone, hopefully making the cycle more comfortable. Additionally one may choose to continue Deca for a number of few weeks after the androgen has been stopped. This will hopefully harden up some of the bloat produced by the androgen, giving a more quality appearance. Remember that endogenous testosterone production will not resume during Deca therapy, and ancillaries are likewise still needed.


#5

A safer version to getting large??? I don't really know about that, but to answer your question, eq doesn't come with many side effects. Aromatization is about 50% as much as test, and dht conversion is rather low as well. In high doses, such as 600mg+ you can run into the the issue of having too high of a rbc count, as eq and anadrol are notorious for this. Edema is not a concern.

MK


#6

in checking the archives here, i found an article where Nelson Montana mkes a refernce that Deca "thins the blood"...i never heard that before, though...

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=460596


#7

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.


#8

HOLY POOP! that was very imformative, thanx. but i still would be curious to see what one produces a higher red blood cell count. this is the most infactor to me, then strength- not sp much size...
thanx for all the info...
you guys rock!


#9

I know MK. I wasn't real clear. The "info" we had at the time (1993) was that deca was one of the more safer cycles. We took it easy with maxing out during the middle of the cycle and falling off towards the end. Talk about bloated. I looked like a freak. I got freakishly stong too. It seems as though the deca let me lose around my waist but bloated at the top with no definition. I am seeing a lot about EQ and more and more guys using it. Because of the bloating? Everything I have researched says that guys tend to retain the gains with EQ even after the cycle, with lean hard muscle. For someone that didn't want to risk the side effects with gear, that an EQ cycle by itself would be ok, but don't get too high with the doses. What is your opinion Big Mike?


#10

Thanks cyco. Answered my question, in depth I might add.
JW