Epistane Cycle

[quote]grippit wrote:
Thanks for the feedback guys (and interesting discussion). Still some questions: I thought the main problem with Epi is rebound gyno due to “AI properties” of Epi,. Couldn’t it be enough to PCT with AI’s like Arimistane and Formestane, especially if running a milder cycle? OP could you possibly get Nolva on hand via prescription or is all of that out of the question?
[/quote]

No. An AI like arimistane or formestane helps a little (not a lot) for the likely increase estrogen from the rebound but they are not going to get your boys running again. Epistane is going to be suppressive, no way around that unless you are taking ineffective doses of epistane for a very short cycle (in which it’s going to do a whole lot of nothing good or bad). So nolva and clomid are being used to help get your boys working again. Issue with a SERM is that after that clears your system, you may possibly have excess estrogen in your system which again, is estrogen rebound.

So a suicidal AI could be helpful to lower the amount of estrogen. A SERM doesn’t actually reduce estrogen, it basically takes up certain estrogen receptors to prevent estrogen from doing its thing. Once you go off of the SERM and those receptors are no longer blocked, you could basically end up with excess estrogen (rebound).

Just to clarify:

What an AI does:

It inhibits the aromatase enzyme. You inhibit this enzyme thus causing you to not be able to effective produce estrogen. A suicidal AI basically permanently deactivates aromatase (thus no rebound).

What a SERM does:

It takes up certain estrogen receptors thus preventing estrogen from doing what it does to certain tissues these receptors are located on.

[quote]grippit wrote:
Thanks for the feedback guys (and interesting discussion). Still some questions: I thought the main problem with Epi is rebound gyno due to “AI properties” of Epi,. Couldn’t it be enough to PCT with AI’s like Arimistane and Formestane, especially if running a milder cycle? OP could you possibly get Nolva on hand via prescription or is all of that out of the question?
[/quote]
Probably not. I am going to go ahead and probably wait until I retire. To many variables I cannot legally get around. I do appreciate the brutally honest responses. Went to some other sites and all I got was “go for it brah”! I posted the Post Cycle as there were a few well received plans in past threads I had searched for. Apparently the over all consensus is OTC PCT are crap.

[quote]kissdadookie wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]kissdadookie wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
ok, so what’re the doses of those ingredients in that cycle support supplement?[/quote]

It’s a 1.65 gram prop blend, so the doses should be good on the ingredients. Also comes from a very reputable company. Not going to drop names on T-Nation for obvious reasons ;)[/quote]

Just seems fishy to me. All those supplements (have you ever seen the price of a reasonably dosed Coq10 supp) at that price makes me suspicious. Sounds to me like you’re not getting enough of any of them.

I’ll spend my money on the stuff proven scientifically to work. Save the arimistane or hcgenerate for the chumps like you! ;)[/quote]

You don’t seem to be able to understand the difference between a dose for health vs. a dose for performance benefits. For health benefits, you don’t need that much CoQ10 and thus your argument doesn’t even make sense to begin with.

That there my friend just demonstrates how the rest of you comments on this subject are completely flawed. Not to mention how you’ve initially implied that having NAC is good enough for support. LOL.[/quote]

The only thing worth a “LOL” there is you inventing the fact that health and performance doses are different! Why are you taking those supps if not to stay healthy? What kind of “performance benefit” will those supps give you?

Keep buying your shitey OTC supps your bro at GNC sells you. Moron.

[quote]mstersmith wrote:
Apparently the over all consensus is OTC PCT are crap. [/quote]

Na bro, my man kissdadookie gets sweet gainz bro

[quote]kissdadookie wrote:
What a SERM does:

It takes up certain estrogen receptors thus preventing estrogen from doing what it does to certain tissues these receptors are located on.

[/quote]

oh my god, this is getting silly now. Is that all a SERM does? Really? Is that why we use them in PCT?

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]kissdadookie wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]kissdadookie wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
ok, so what’re the doses of those ingredients in that cycle support supplement?[/quote]

It’s a 1.65 gram prop blend, so the doses should be good on the ingredients. Also comes from a very reputable company. Not going to drop names on T-Nation for obvious reasons ;)[/quote]

Just seems fishy to me. All those supplements (have you ever seen the price of a reasonably dosed Coq10 supp) at that price makes me suspicious. Sounds to me like you’re not getting enough of any of them.

I’ll spend my money on the stuff proven scientifically to work. Save the arimistane or hcgenerate for the chumps like you! ;)[/quote]

You don’t seem to be able to understand the difference between a dose for health vs. a dose for performance benefits. For health benefits, you don’t need that much CoQ10 and thus your argument doesn’t even make sense to begin with.

That there my friend just demonstrates how the rest of you comments on this subject are completely flawed. Not to mention how you’ve initially implied that having NAC is good enough for support. LOL.[/quote]

The only thing worth a “LOL” there is you inventing the fact that health and performance doses are different! Why are you taking those supps if not to stay healthy?

Keep buying your shitey OTC supps your bro at GNC sells you. Moron.[/quote]

You’re kidding me right? You do realize that the performance benefits of let’s say COQ10 is at 300 mg’s per day in the most recent COQ10 performance study right? You’re not going to need anywhere that much to maintain cardiovascular health. For general cardiovascular health, around 50-100 mg’s of it daily is actually a good dose.

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]kissdadookie wrote:
What a SERM does:

It takes up certain estrogen receptors thus preventing estrogen from doing what it does to certain tissues these receptors are located on.

[/quote]

oh my god, this is getting silly now. Is that all a SERM does? Really? Is that why we use them in PCT?[/quote]

Did I say that is all it does? No, I just gave a simplified definition to explain the difference between a SERM and an AI. Are you done trolling here or what?

Oh wait, I forgot, you think that 300 mg’s of COQ10 daily is required to illicit any type of effect. I guess all the data backing up the 60-150 mg dose for antioxidant benefits are all totally bogus yeah? Even though that data trumps the data we have for COQ10’s performance benefits.

Oh wait, I forgot, you’re one of those that runs around going “Look at the science!” without actually understanding the science because you’ve never bothered to do research on the subjects you speak of. My bad, I was giving you way too much credit.

LOL!

…Kissdacookie… are you there?.. I can’t see you… There’s two much straw flying around!

When did I say anything about 300mg of anything??? When did I say “look at the science”???

If you’re going to be a retard, try and at least be entertaining.

God damn you’re stupid. And not in a good, endearing, Ernest-Goes-To-Camp way. In a painful to watch, irritating, Ernest-Goes-To-Splash-Mountain kind of way.

From now on, I shall forever refer to you as “Ernest”.

[quote]Yogi wrote:
LOL!

…Kissdacookie… are you there?.. I can’t see you… There’s two much straw flying around!

When did I say anything about 300mg of anything??? When did I say “look at the science”???

If you’re going to be a retard, try and at least be entertaining.

God damn you’re stupid. And not in a good, endearing, Ernest-Goes-To-Camp way. In a painful to watch, irritating, Ernest-Goes-To-Splash-Mountain kind of way.

From now on, I shall forever refer to you as “Ernest”.[/quote]

Obviously there’s no need to go back and forth with you anymore. I’ve been sticking with trying to be informative on this thread and you’ve basically just gone around making unsubstantiated blankets statements.

Need I really have to remind you of your COQ10 comment earlier? You stated that the gear support product I mentioned must be BS because judging by the price, for an effective dose of COQ10 it can’t be that cheap. Guess what? All they really need for the purpose of the product is 50-100 mg’s of COQ10. At such a dose, COQ10 is actually incredibly affordable. Thus if you had any understanding of how to read a label, you would have deduced that the product I was using as an example, has more or less everything well dosed in it since a serving is 1.65 grams.

Remember, it was YOU whom were implying that 50-100 mg’s of COQ10 is a useless dose (seeing how you pointed out that COQ10 was very expensive for an effective dose, if you haven’t noticed, it only gets expensive when we are talking about doses ranging from 200-400 mg’s per day which is what many athletes actually want for the potential performance benefits as well as possible conversion of type 1 fibers to type 2). Need I also really have to point out how you were ridiculing me for pointing out that there are dosing differences for COQ10 for different purposes (performance vs. general health)? I mean, you ridiculed me for that whilst you yourself was not even aware that there are different dosages for different purposes in regards to COQ10. This in and of itself suggests to me that you are basically spurting nonsense on here without ever bothering to fact check yourself.

You’ve joined this site for what, 2-3 months and mostly been lurking and providing zero value to threads, I guess it is what it is. Carry on, you can have the last word.

Thanks man. Yeah, I know what AI’s and SERM’s do, just didn’t know that Epi was that suppressive.
I was originally thinking along the lines of a mild cycle, while keeping your nads in working order with say a double dose of AlphaMale during and after. Then going for an OTC (suicidal) AI to prevent rebound gyno. and skipping the SERM while keeping things legal for OP. But as you said cycle would probably have to be too short and low dosed for effect. Makes sense.

I wonder what Reed would recommend in this case (wait till I protect my eardrums)

[quote]grippit wrote:
Thanks man. Yeah, I know what AI’s and SERM’s do, just didn’t know that Epi was that suppressive.
I was originally thinking along the lines of a mild cycle, while keeping your nads in working order with say a double dose of AlphaMale during and after. Then going for an OTC (suicidal) AI to prevent rebound gyno. and skipping the SERM while keeping things legal for OP. But as you said cycle would probably have to be too short and low dosed for effect. Makes sense.

I wonder what Reed would recommend in this case (wait till I protect my eardrums)
[/quote]

There’s no real “mild” cycle TBH in terms of suppression. An effective cycle is going to be suppressive. Period.

[quote]kissdadookie wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
LOL!

…Kissdacookie… are you there?.. I can’t see you… There’s two much straw flying around!

When did I say anything about 300mg of anything??? When did I say “look at the science”???

If you’re going to be a retard, try and at least be entertaining.

God damn you’re stupid. And not in a good, endearing, Ernest-Goes-To-Camp way. In a painful to watch, irritating, Ernest-Goes-To-Splash-Mountain kind of way.

From now on, I shall forever refer to you as “Ernest”.[/quote]

Obviously there’s no need to go back and forth with you anymore. I’ve been sticking with trying to be informative on this thread and you’ve basically just gone around making unsubstantiated blankets statements.

Need I really have to remind you of your COQ10 comment earlier? You stated that the gear support product I mentioned must be BS because judging by the price, for an effective dose of COQ10 it can’t be that cheap. Guess what? All they really need for the purpose of the product is 50-100 mg’s of COQ10. At such a dose, COQ10 is actually incredibly affordable. Thus if you had any understanding of how to read a label, you would have deduced that the product I was using as an example, has more or less everything well dosed in it since a serving is 1.65 grams.

Remember, it was YOU whom were implying that 50-100 mg’s of COQ10 is a useless dose (seeing how you pointed out that COQ10 was very expensive for an effective dose, if you haven’t noticed, it only gets expensive when we are talking about doses ranging from 200-400 mg’s per day which is what many athletes actually want for the potential performance benefits as well as possible conversion of type 1 fibers to type 2). Need I also really have to point out how you were ridiculing me for pointing out that there are dosing differences for COQ10 for different purposes (performance vs. general health)? I mean, you ridiculed me for that whilst you yourself was not even aware that there are different dosages for different purposes in regards to COQ10. This in and of itself suggests to me that you are basically spurting nonsense on here without ever bothering to fact check yourself.

You’ve joined this site for what, 2-3 months and mostly been lurking and providing zero value to threads, I guess it is what it is. Carry on, you can have the last word.[/quote]

[quote]kissdadookie wrote:

[quote]grippit wrote:
Thanks man. Yeah, I know what AI’s and SERM’s do, just didn’t know that Epi was that suppressive.
I was originally thinking along the lines of a mild cycle, while keeping your nads in working order with say a double dose of AlphaMale during and after. Then going for an OTC (suicidal) AI to prevent rebound gyno. and skipping the SERM while keeping things legal for OP. But as you said cycle would probably have to be too short and low dosed for effect. Makes sense.

I wonder what Reed would recommend in this case (wait till I protect my eardrums)
[/quote]

There’s no real “mild” cycle TBH in terms of suppression. An effective cycle is going to be suppressive. Period.
[/quote]

I understand, just thought that Epistane’s effects were more of an “anti estrogenic/ AI type” nature and fairly helpful for a cutting cycle. I guess it also depends on what you mean by “effective” (muscle mass gain, retaining mass while cutting or recovery support during a high intensity training cycle)

Anyways, thanks for the helpful replies.

And good luck OP

[quote]mstersmith wrote:
My stats now
6’5" 225 (does fluctuate)
Max Bench 345
Max Squat 365
Max Deadlift 415
10% BF by cheap calipers
Average Calorie intake 3800-4500

I am in the military stationed in the High Desert of SoCal. I have been hitting the iron since I was 13 I am 34 now. I was 160 when I signed on and it took 14 years from the day I picked a weight up for any real results. I have done your standard 5 day split, 6 day, XFit, XFit football and power training.

I have taken mild PH during the hey day but never really serious about it. I eat clean, train for war and enjoy life. With the ole brewhaha dying down in the arm pit of the world I am deciding that I would like to possibly take my training further. I have read and read these forums so I figured I would ask about my cycle.

Epistane (EP-Stane) 30/30/30/40/40/40
Cycle Support 2 weeks prior and through the post (L-Stane)
creatine 5mg
Pre workout
niacin 500mg
Multi Vitamin

PCT (After cycle)w/cycle support
creatine 5mg
Pre workout
niacin 500mg
Multi Vitamin

Once the PCT runs out I plan to take the M-Stak for 6 weeks and see were exactly I end up. I plan to run a push/pull,push/pull,legs split 6 days a week. For cardio I have fallen in love with sled pushes and trap bar HITT cardio (stuff from the site here). Seeing as it tops out at 115 in august here it torches fat! With my diet set I hope to maintain the self discipline to accomplish this.

My only concern is the back and leg pumps I have read about. I have to be able to run 3-10 miles at a drop of a hat. Is this a thing a dose of suck it the fuck up and power through or am I going to have issues? My goal at the end of this is 10 pounds of muscle and if I drop some body fat so be it. Appreciate the help and I hope I was detailed enough.
[/quote]

i’m guessing i’m one of the few who’s used Epi, and also happen to be in the military as well, so i’ll try to answer some of this…

Epi is really similar to Epitiostanol, which was an anti estrogen designed in Japan ( http://jjco.oxfordjournals.org/content/3/2/99.abstract ). anyway, Epi is methylated, which means it’s gonna affect your liver, as it has to process it.

when i used it, i got good gains in strength and muscle, and they were very lean. no water, at all. in fact, the last time i used it i got really bad joint pain from it…

based off that, i believe the anit-estrogen effects to be true.

i haven’t used it since, because it was so hard on my joints…

however, in reading more about it just now, from what i understand, Epi binds to the androgen receptor (AR) and estrogen receptor (ER). apparently it activates the AR and deactivates the ER…

this makes me wonder what kind of effect it has on endogeneous hormone production, since it kind of acts like a SERM…

but anyway, as someone who has to run and kick in doors, i wouldn’t suggest it. everytime i’ve lowered my estrogen levels too low, i feel beat up, and couldn’t imagine humping any distance or clearing a city out, room by room.

there are some AAS i’d suggest for warfighters, but this isn’t one…

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]mstersmith wrote:
My stats now
6’5" 225 (does fluctuate)
Max Bench 345
Max Squat 365
Max Deadlift 415
10% BF by cheap calipers
Average Calorie intake 3800-4500

I am in the military stationed in the High Desert of SoCal. I have been hitting the iron since I was 13 I am 34 now. I was 160 when I signed on and it took 14 years from the day I picked a weight up for any real results. I have done your standard 5 day split, 6 day, XFit, XFit football and power training.

I have taken mild PH during the hey day but never really serious about it. I eat clean, train for war and enjoy life. With the ole brewhaha dying down in the arm pit of the world I am deciding that I would like to possibly take my training further. I have read and read these forums so I figured I would ask about my cycle.

Epistane (EP-Stane) 30/30/30/40/40/40
Cycle Support 2 weeks prior and through the post (L-Stane)
creatine 5mg
Pre workout
niacin 500mg
Multi Vitamin

PCT (After cycle)w/cycle support
creatine 5mg
Pre workout
niacin 500mg
Multi Vitamin

Once the PCT runs out I plan to take the M-Stak for 6 weeks and see were exactly I end up. I plan to run a push/pull,push/pull,legs split 6 days a week. For cardio I have fallen in love with sled pushes and trap bar HITT cardio (stuff from the site here). Seeing as it tops out at 115 in august here it torches fat! With my diet set I hope to maintain the self discipline to accomplish this.

My only concern is the back and leg pumps I have read about. I have to be able to run 3-10 miles at a drop of a hat. Is this a thing a dose of suck it the fuck up and power through or am I going to have issues? My goal at the end of this is 10 pounds of muscle and if I drop some body fat so be it. Appreciate the help and I hope I was detailed enough.
[/quote]

i’m guessing i’m one of the few who’s used Epi, and also happen to be in the military as well, so i’ll try to answer some of this…

Epi is really similar to Epitiostanol, which was an anti estrogen designed in Japan ( http://jjco.oxfordjournals.org/content/3/2/99.abstract ). anyway, Epi is methylated, which means it’s gonna affect your liver, as it has to process it.

when i used it, i got good gains in strength and muscle, and they were very lean. no water, at all. in fact, the last time i used it i got really bad joint pain from it…

based off that, i believe the anit-estrogen effects to be true.

i haven’t used it since, because it was so hard on my joints…

however, in reading more about it just now, from what i understand, Epi binds to the androgen receptor (AR) and estrogen receptor (ER). apparently it activates the AR and deactivates the ER…

this makes me wonder what kind of effect it has on endogeneous hormone production, since it kind of acts like a SERM…

but anyway, as someone who has to run and kick in doors, i wouldn’t suggest it. everytime i’ve lowered my estrogen levels too low, i feel beat up, and couldn’t imagine humping any distance or clearing a city out, room by room.

there are some AAS i’d suggest for warfighters, but this isn’t one…

[/quote]
Thanks man this is also what I was looking for. I usually hump my desk but we have been gearing up a bit as of late. Been thinking of going back to more 5x5 work and digging in on the core lifts again. As you can see and has been pointed out my squats are not very impressive at this time…

[quote]grippit wrote:

[quote]kissdadookie wrote:

[quote]grippit wrote:
Thanks man. Yeah, I know what AI’s and SERM’s do, just didn’t know that Epi was that suppressive.
I was originally thinking along the lines of a mild cycle, while keeping your nads in working order with say a double dose of AlphaMale during and after. Then going for an OTC (suicidal) AI to prevent rebound gyno. and skipping the SERM while keeping things legal for OP. But as you said cycle would probably have to be too short and low dosed for effect. Makes sense.

I wonder what Reed would recommend in this case (wait till I protect my eardrums)
[/quote]

There’s no real “mild” cycle TBH in terms of suppression. An effective cycle is going to be suppressive. Period.
[/quote]

I understand, just thought that Epistane’s effects were more of an “anti estrogenic/ AI type” nature and fairly helpful for a cutting cycle. I guess it also depends on what you mean by “effective” (muscle mass gain, retaining mass while cutting or recovery support during a high intensity training cycle)

Anyways, thanks for the helpful replies.

And good luck OP
[/quote]

Because it’s a DHT derivative, it has AI type effects as it is the inherent nature of these types of compounds. However, the way it helps build muscle is that it binds to androgen receptors thus helping increase protein synthesis. It also binds to stem cells (which is the main reason why it’s harder to get as fat on a bulk when running epistane, androgens inhibits the formation of new fat cells, doesn’t mean you should have a trashy diet, you can still turn into a tubby SOB). Epistane is also highly anabolic.

End of the day though, in a nutshell is that epistane is indeed an oral designer steroid that has significant impact on the endocrine system which ultimately leads to suppression of natural t production as well as possible estrogen rebound (as someone has mentioned, it has SERM-like qualities which in turn can lead to excess estrogen in your system hitting the estrogen receptors when you come off the compound and those receptors are liberated).

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

there are some AAS i’d suggest for warfighters, but this isn’t one…

[/quote]

I have had the exact same problems with Epi, and was wondering what you’d suggest as more suitable?

I wouldn’t call your lifts weak by any means. I see you’re 6’5 at 225lbs. Some people forget how much harder it is to move weight for tall/long limb people.

If testosterone is available to you, just use that. It really is the best. I don’t know why people insist on using orals first when test alone with proper pct is the safest and most effective.