T Nation

Epistane Cycle

My stats now
6’5" 225 (does fluctuate)
Max Bench 345
Max Squat 365
Max Deadlift 415
10% BF by cheap calipers
Average Calorie intake 3800-4500

I am in the military stationed in the High Desert of SoCal. I have been hitting the iron since I was 13 I am 34 now. I was 160 when I signed on and it took 14 years from the day I picked a weight up for any real results. I have done your standard 5 day split, 6 day, XFit, XFit football and power training.

I have taken mild PH during the hey day but never really serious about it. I eat clean, train for war and enjoy life. With the ole brewhaha dying down in the arm pit of the world I am deciding that I would like to possibly take my training further. I have read and read these forums so I figured I would ask about my cycle.

Epistane (EP-Stane) 30/30/30/40/40/40
Cycle Support 2 weeks prior and through the post (L-Stane)
creatine 5mg
Pre workout
niacin 500mg
Multi Vitamin

PCT (After cycle)w/cycle support
creatine 5mg
Pre workout
niacin 500mg
Multi Vitamin

Once the PCT runs out I plan to take the M-Stak for 6 weeks and see were exactly I end up. I plan to run a push/pull,push/pull,legs split 6 days a week. For cardio I have fallen in love with sled pushes and trap bar HITT cardio (stuff from the site here). Seeing as it tops out at 115 in august here it torches fat! With my diet set I hope to maintain the self discipline to accomplish this.

My only concern is the back and leg pumps I have read about. I have to be able to run 3-10 miles at a drop of a hat. Is this a thing a dose of suck it the fuck up and power through or am I going to have issues? My goal at the end of this is 10 pounds of muscle and if I drop some body fat so be it. Appreciate the help and I hope I was detailed enough.

Your PCT is chit. Get yourself some Nolvadex or Clomid. The epi will suppress your natural t production as well as a possible estrogen rebound when you are off cycle.

[quote]mstersmith wrote:

Max Bench 345
Max Squat 365

[/quote]

I would like to know the explanation for this

That is the worst PCT I’ve ever seen. Literally. I have literally never seen a PCT worse.

Honestly, how can you say you’ve “read and read these forums” but yet still come out with such a completely unique, utterly bizarre, and egregiously useless PCT such as that?

I mean god damn I have seen some bad PCTs on this forum, but holy shitsauce that is weak. You clearly have no comprehension of what the actual purpose of PCT even is.

And I highly doubt you’ll get 10lbs of muscle from 6 weeks of epistane, but even if you did you’d lose it all during your “PCT”.

Imagine a parachute. Now imagine a parachute made completely from human shit. That shit parachute, is your PCT. You want this parachute to help you, but really all it is going to do is cover you in shit. Your PCT will cover you, completely, from head to toe, in shit. Diarrheic, hungover, cheap Indian food induced, shit.

Did I mention you should change your PCT? Well you should, you know. The PCT you have proposed is not very good.

Ok I realize that I should go with novalex or clomid. I can’t do to my current profession and a Co with a hard on for meat heads. We had several guys exit service while on there post cycle. So I went with what was available as in legally available not bright and may hold off. The weak squat no excuse. Working on it. Had it much higher previously but figured I would be honest with my stats right now rather than play al bundy.

Does anybody have experience with Formestane and/or Arimistane as a PCT after a mild Epi cycle? I think that’s still legally available. Or are we still talking shit-chute with that? (just thinking in terms of keeping things legal)

[quote]grippit wrote:
Does anybody have experience with Formestane and/or Arimistane as a PCT after a mild Epi cycle? I think that’s still legally available. Or are we still talking shit-chute with that? (just thinking in terms of keeping things legal)

[/quote]

Those are AIs. They are good to use on and post cycle as additional support but they do not take the place of a SERM.

you need a SERM, man. There’s no way around it.

All the over the counter stuff they try and sell you for PCT is garbage.

[quote]Yogi wrote:
you need a SERM, man. There’s no way around it.

All the over the counter stuff they try and sell you for PCT is garbage.[/quote]

Not complete garbage, many of them are good additions to a solid PCT base. The OTC stuff are just not very effective as stand alone PCT solutions.

[quote]kissdadookie wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
you need a SERM, man. There’s no way around it.

All the over the counter stuff they try and sell you for PCT is garbage.[/quote]

Not complete garbage, many of them are good additions to a solid PCT base. The OTC stuff are just not very effective as stand alone PCT solutions.[/quote]

what are the benefits of adding them to SERMs? Not trying to argue or anything, just curious.

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]kissdadookie wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
you need a SERM, man. There’s no way around it.

All the over the counter stuff they try and sell you for PCT is garbage.[/quote]

Not complete garbage, many of them are good additions to a solid PCT base. The OTC stuff are just not very effective as stand alone PCT solutions.[/quote]

what are the benefits of adding them to SERMs? Not trying to argue or anything, just curious.[/quote]

Mostly libido benefits for most of the natty test boosting ingredients that many of these OTC PCT products contain. Also most of the good ones have well dosed anti-oxidants and detox ingredients in them which is going to help clean up your organs somewhat. An ingredient like DAA would help bring your natural test production up more quickly as well (which it has been demonstrated to do for folks with low-T, which you will be a member of off cycle). Many of the OTC PCT products nowadays also contain good doses of arimistane which is a suicidal AI. A suicidal AI is good to use during your PCT to prevent possible estrogen rebound from the SERM.

arimistane’s never been proven to work, and you could buy some n acetyl cysteine way cheaper than those “cycle support” bullshit and’ll do a much better job.

[quote]Yogi wrote:
arimistane’s never been proven to work, and you could buy some n acetyl cysteine way cheaper than those “cycle support” bullshit and’ll do a much better job.[/quote]

There’s many things we take that has not been studied on actual humans, it does not necessarily mean that it’s not going to work. The data we do have on arimistane shows that it’s comparable to Arimidex but less bioavailable (thus why you would want to take arimistane @ 75-100 mg’s a day).

OTC PCT/support supps aren’t that expensive to begin with. One of the better ones costs about $35 and contains:

NAC
Hawthorne extract
Saw Palmetto extract
Red Clover extract
COQ10
Celery Seed extract
Grape Seed extract

You mentioning “just take NAC and that will work fine” is silly at best. You’re essentially covering ONE element out of a whole array of things that might go wrong when running a cycle as well as the aftermath of a cycle.

Also, just to make a point, there’s a chit ton of PH/oral steroids on the market today that have very little to no human data on them but they indisputably work and work well.

Mind you, I’m not saying that an OTC product takes the place of a SERM but they are good additions to a solid PCT protocol. Also, the on cycle support supps, quite a few of them are actually very good and priced well and one would be wise to use them whilst on cycle and probably a good idea to run them all the way into and through PCT.

ok, so what’re the doses of those ingredients in that cycle support supplement?

[quote]Yogi wrote:
ok, so what’re the doses of those ingredients in that cycle support supplement?[/quote]

It’s a 1.65 gram prop blend, so the doses should be good on the ingredients. Also comes from a very reputable company. Not going to drop names on T-Nation for obvious reasons :wink:

[quote]kissdadookie wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
ok, so what’re the doses of those ingredients in that cycle support supplement?[/quote]

It’s a 1.65 gram prop blend, so the doses should be good on the ingredients. Also comes from a very reputable company. Not going to drop names on T-Nation for obvious reasons ;)[/quote]

Just seems fishy to me. All those supplements (have you ever seen the price of a reasonably dosed Coq10 supp) at that price makes me suspicious. Sounds to me like you’re not getting enough of any of them.

I’ll spend my money on the stuff proven scientifically to work. Save the arimistane or hcgenerate for the chumps like you! :wink:

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]kissdadookie wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
ok, so what’re the doses of those ingredients in that cycle support supplement?[/quote]

It’s a 1.65 gram prop blend, so the doses should be good on the ingredients. Also comes from a very reputable company. Not going to drop names on T-Nation for obvious reasons ;)[/quote]

Just seems fishy to me. All those supplements (have you ever seen the price of a reasonably dosed Coq10 supp) at that price makes me suspicious. Sounds to me like you’re not getting enough of any of them.

I’ll spend my money on the stuff proven scientifically to work. Save the arimistane or hcgenerate for the chumps like you! ;)[/quote]

You don’t seem to be able to understand the difference between a dose for health vs. a dose for performance benefits. For health benefits, you don’t need that much CoQ10 and thus your argument doesn’t even make sense to begin with.

That there my friend just demonstrates how the rest of you comments on this subject are completely flawed. Not to mention how you’ve initially implied that having NAC is good enough for support. LOL.

You don’t seem to understand that your taking a shitty drug with alot of shitty sides and then are trying to combat it with shittier “PCT” combinations. All while at this time you have shitty numbers for your body weight especially in the squat and pull category especially considering you have taken shitty PHs in the past and have obviously gotten shitty results. All of this leads me to believe you have shitty programming and all around shitty concept of these drugs and programming which by your logic makes and all your above statements pretty much flawed… Oh and shitty don’t forget that.

Thanks for the feedback guys (and interesting discussion). Still some questions: I thought the main problem with Epi is rebound gyno due to “AI properties” of Epi. Couldn’t it be enough to PCT with AI’s like Arimistane and Formestane, especially if running a milder cycle? OP could you possibly get Nolva on hand via prescription or is all of that out of the question?