T Nation

Epi with PCT


#1

To start, I had gyno from puberty and then I took Tren when I was 21, which i believe made it worse. I have also smoked weed pretty much every day since I was 17. I am now 27. Exactly 1 year ago I had surgery to get the gyno removed, but they failed to remove all of it. Yes, it looks much better than before (good enough to be shirtless around people) but it still isn't all the way gone. I'm over it, I just dont want it to get worse.

Anyway, moving on. I have not started the cycle yet but I have ordered Epi, Vital Labs ProteX (liver support) and Vital Labs Post Cycle 3x. Post Cycle 3x is as follows:

Serving Size: 4 Capsules
Servings per container: 30

Bulgarian Tribulus Terrestris 700mg **
Trans Resveratrol 50% 800mg **
Eurycoma Longfolia 100:1 100mg **
Caffeine 20mg **
Milk Thistle 200mg **
NAC 100mg **
ZMA, Zinc Aspartate 30mg **
Magnesium 400mg **
Indol-3-Carbinol 200mg **
Avena Sativa 400mg


I was planning on running a low dose Epi for 6 weeks, basically 20mg every day and then taper off at the end instead of going up to 30mg or 40mg like I've seen some people do. Maybe something like:

Week 1,2,3,4,5: 20mg/day
Week 6: 10mg/day

Week 7,8,9,10: Post Cycle 3x everyday

Should I also take tamoxifen, RALOXIFENE, or aromasin during my PCT? I also wanted to take this time to go ahead and try the Tamox or Ralox to possibly reduce some of the gyno that I have left since I've read about SOME people having a good experience with Ralox/Tamox in reducing gyno. Any suggestions out there?

Upon reading up on this topic more. Most people say 20mg is a waste and to do atleast 30mg. My main thing is that i'm worried about sides. Someone suggested to do only 4 weeks at 30mg if I am worried about sides.

Also, should I take DAA along with the Post Cycle 3x and SERM?


#2

Upon reading up on this topic more. Most people say 20mg is a waste and to do atleast 30mg. My main thing is that i’m worried about sides. Someone suggested to do only 4 weeks at 30mg if I am worried about sides.


#3

[quote]squier wrote:
To start, I had gyno from puberty and then I took Tren when I was 21, which i believe made it worse. I have also smoked weed pretty much every day since I was 17. I am now 27. Exactly 1 year ago I had surgery to get the gyno removed, but they failed to remove all of it. Yes, it looks much better than before (good enough to be shirtless around people) but it still isn’t all the way gone. I’m over it, I just dont want it to get worse.

Anyway, moving on. I have not started the cycle yet but I have ordered Epi, Vital Labs ProteX (liver support) and Vital Labs Post Cycle 3x. Post Cycle 3x is as follows:

Serving Size: 4 Capsules
Servings per container: 30

Bulgarian Tribulus Terrestris 700mg **
Trans Resveratrol 50% 800mg **
Eurycoma Longfolia 100:1 100mg **
Caffeine 20mg **
Milk Thistle 200mg **
NAC 100mg **
ZMA, Zinc Aspartate 30mg **
Magnesium 400mg **
Indol-3-Carbinol 200mg **
Avena Sativa 400mg


I was planning on running a low dose Epi for 6 weeks, basically 20mg every day and then taper off at the end instead of going up to 30mg or 40mg like I’ve seen some people do. Maybe something like:

Week 1,2,3,4,5: 20mg/day
Week 6: 10mg/day

Week 7,8,9,10: Post Cycle 3x everyday

Should I also take tamoxifen, RALOXIFENE, or aromasin during my PCT? I also wanted to take this time to go ahead and try the Tamox or Ralox to possibly reduce some of the gyno that I have left since I’ve read about SOME people having a good experience with Ralox/Tamox in reducing gyno. Any suggestions out there?[/quote]

start off at 20 mg of Epi/day. i had some bad joint side effects the 2nd time i used it…

that OTC PCT you posted is okay. it’s got ZMA and I3C, at least… regardless, you still need a SERM for PCT… Tamoxifen (nolva) at 20 mg/day for 6 weeks should be good for a cycle like that.

as far as treating gyno, Aromasin (25 mg) and Raloxifene (60 mg) has worked really well for some guys.

i did a half-ass thread trying to break down some of the SERMs/AI’s here:


#4

cycobushmaster, thank you so much for a quick and informative reply.

So you recommend starting EPI @ 20mg/day and then moving up to 30mg? Do you recommend a 4 week or 6 week cycle?


If I try the Aromasin and/or Raloxifene for possible gyno reduction, should I do it at another time when I am not on the Epi cycle? Do I use one or the other, or both together? Is there a certain length to run Aromasin and/or Raloxifene? Do I taper off Aromasin/Raloxifene as the cycle comes to an end? Do I take anything post Aromasin/Raloxifene cycle?

Thanks again!


#5

[quote]squier wrote:
cycobushmaster, thank you so much for a quick and informative reply.

So you recommend starting EPI @ 20mg/day and then moving up to 30mg? Do you recommend a 4 week or 6 week cycle?


If I try the Aromasin and/or Raloxifene for possible gyno reduction, should I do it at another time when I am not on the Epi cycle? Do I use one or the other, or both together? Is there a certain length to run Aromasin and/or Raloxifene? Do I taper off Aromasin/Raloxifene as the cycle comes to an end? Do I take anything post Aromasin/Raloxifene cycle?

Thanks again![/quote]

based off how quickly Epi dropped my estrogen levels, i’d start at 20, at least for a couple days, to see how you react…

with that being said, i would not add additional estrogen control with that.

the shorter the cycle, the easier the recovery… but the longer (and higher doses) typically result in larger gains… i think you can adjust this on the fly, if you hit 4 weeks and are happy with your gains, then you can transition into PCT. if you wanna go another week or 2, i doubt there will be too many issues…

typically nolva is used as PCT, but you might want to try raloxifene for the Epi PCT… Ralox is not as strong as Nolva, but if one ran Epi for 4 weeks and ran Ralox for 4 weeks, one could expect decent gains, recovery and some reduction in gyno…


#6

Once again, very informative response. I’ll run it at 20 for a few days or so and then bump up to 30 then maybe 40. When you say “see how you respond”, what exactly would I be looking for? You mean if I start to get gyno symptoms?

Also, if I do for some reason feel some gyno symptoms while on the epi, should I stop and start taking the ralox? Or keep running the epi and run tamoxifen or ralox with it?

I appreciate your time. Thanks again.


#7

I am on day 3 of my Epi Cycle

What I have:

Epi
Liver Protection
OTC PCT
Tamoxifen
Raloxifene

I guess i’ll use this thread to keep a log of what happens. I am looking to add lean muscle, lose fat and of course see if Epi/Ralox combo helps to reduce any of my existing gyno.

I’ll post pictures of my current gyno, along with a pic of my pre-op gyno lol. But that’ll come later today. Happy Labor day everyone!


#8

Question for anyone reading this thread.

What, exactly, is the point of this ‘cycle’? It seems like absolute dog shit to me. At the low dose you’re suggesting, for 4 weeks, you MAY see SOME results. Maybe, maybe not. And then you’ll have to go to the trouble of doing a PCT, in which you’ll likely lose such minimal gains pretty much immediately during the period when your T is tanked. It just seems like you’ll end up with zero benefit, and plenty of expense here. Couple that with the fact that you smoke weed everyday… man. You’re just so far off track here.


#9

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
Question for anyone reading this thread.

What, exactly, is the point of this ‘cycle’? It seems like absolute dog shit to me. At the low dose you’re suggesting, for 4 weeks, you MAY see SOME results. Maybe, maybe not. And then you’ll have to go to the trouble of doing a PCT, in which you’ll likely lose such minimal gains pretty much immediately during the period when your T is tanked. It just seems like you’ll end up with zero benefit, and plenty of expense here. Couple that with the fact that you smoke weed everyday… man. You’re just so far off track here.[/quote]

you’d be absolutely correct. 20mg of epi won’t do a damn thing. 60mg a day would be alright I guess, but really you’d want to stack it with test.


#10

I think it’s the false sense of security since it’s legal. That explains why he did no research. That also explains why he has no idea that this, being a non-aromatising compound, has the possibility of causing his gyno to flare AFTER THE CYCLE, not during.


#11

I will go up to 30mg today then and finish off the week, then I’ll go to 40mg for weeks 2,3 and 4. I may stop at 4 weeks or keep going to 5 or 6. I may stay at 40mg or go up to 50mg for week 5 or 6 but we shall see.

Yes I know I shouldn’t experience gyno symptoms while on cycle but other people have reported that they did. And I know I need to worry about the gyno flaring up after the cycle, but that’s why I have the tamox and ralox.

Fortunately, I am doing great financially, so it’s all good in that department. And what’s the big deal about smoking every day? My training and eating is on point as best as I can do. At least I’m not smoking cigarettes or drinking alcohol. Because I smoke weed every day do you just assume that I am a lazy “stoner” or “pothead”. I could go on I guess but if you think I’m a punk ass kid that smokes weed, lives at home with their parents and has no job, then you are mistaken.

I guess I just have one question at the moment. Should I be taking the epi all at once or spread it out throughout the day?

Thanks.


#12

I don’t see any harm in the smoking. It’s not like you’re just sat on your arse all day eating snacks, smoking dope and watching talk shows.

I strongly recommend bumping your epi dose to 60mg, and running it like that for 6 weeks. Split the dose up into morning, noon and night.

The cycle your doing will do very little. You should really run injectable test along with it, but some puss… I mean people are too scared of needles for that.


#13

[quote]squier wrote:
I will go up to 30mg today then and finish off the week, then I’ll go to 40mg for weeks 2,3 and 4. I may stop at 4 weeks or keep going to 5 or 6. I may stay at 40mg or go up to 50mg for week 5 or 6 but we shall see.

Yes I know I shouldn’t experience gyno symptoms while on cycle but other people have reported that they did. And I know I need to worry about the gyno flaring up after the cycle, but that’s why I have the tamox and ralox.

Fortunately, I am doing great financially, so it’s all good in that department. And what’s the big deal about smoking every day? My training and eating is on point as best as I can do. At least I’m not smoking cigarettes or drinking alcohol. Because I smoke weed every day do you just assume that I am a lazy “stoner” or “pothead”. I could go on I guess but if you think I’m a punk ass kid that smokes weed, lives at home with their parents and has no job, then you are mistaken.

I guess I just have one question at the moment. Should I be taking the epi all at once or spread it out throughout the day?

Thanks. [/quote]

If those descriptions don’t apply to you, so be it. They generally do apply to those who smoke everyday.

As for your question, it should be taken in at least 2 separate doses, and 3 would be better. If I remember correctly, Epi has something like an 8 hour half life, so taking it when you wake up, sometime in the middle of the day, and then right before sleep would be sensible. If you felt like the late dose was affecting your sleep (it shouldn’t), you could just take each dose about 5 or 6 hours apart instead of 8.


#14

60mg… Damn I seriously read as much as I could and nearly everyone ran 40mg max. Are you suggesting I do 60mg since I am running epi alone or is 60 what you should run? Also, what would happen if I don’t run epi with test? I’ve seen people post about epi only cycles wih decent results. I know test would enhance the results but what can I expect without it? Thanks for your time bud. Appreciate it.


#15

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

If those descriptions don’t apply to you, so be it. They generally do apply to those who smoke everyday.

As for your question, it should be taken in at least 2 separate doses, and 3 would be better. If I remember correctly, Epi has something like an 8 hour half life, so taking it when you wake up, sometime in the middle of the day, and then right before sleep would be sensible. If you felt like the late dose was affecting your sleep (it shouldn’t), you could just take each dose about 5 or 6 hours apart instead of 8.[/quote]

Definitely doesnt apply to me. I am also involved in downhill mountain bike racing and nearly racing at the professional level. I also do a few 25+ mile road rides throughout the week to help keep cardio up. I work construction aswell, so im always doing something. The smoking usually comes after a long day.

Not sure if it’s the epi but I have noticed that it’s been harder for me to relax my mind and get to bed these past few days. I’ll see how it goes then. Thanks for the help!


#16

[quote]squier wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

If those descriptions don’t apply to you, so be it. They generally do apply to those who smoke everyday.

As for your question, it should be taken in at least 2 separate doses, and 3 would be better. If I remember correctly, Epi has something like an 8 hour half life, so taking it when you wake up, sometime in the middle of the day, and then right before sleep would be sensible. If you felt like the late dose was affecting your sleep (it shouldn’t), you could just take each dose about 5 or 6 hours apart instead of 8.[/quote]

Definitely doesnt apply to me. I am also involved in downhill mountain bike racing and nearly racing at the professional level. I also do a few 25+ mile road rides throughout the week to help keep cardio up. I work construction aswell, so im always doing something. The smoking usually comes after a long day.

Not sure if it’s the epi but I have noticed that it’s been harder for me to relax my mind and get to bed these past few days. I’ll see how it goes then. Thanks for the help!
[/quote]

eh, i didn’t know that was your profession… seriously, Epi can be rough on the joints. i would not recommend this to an athlete that takes a lot of physical abuse…

for those critical of the dose, i noticed 20 mg as being relatively effective. 35 mg was more so, but i also had some serious joint issues at that level…


#17

I see I see. Thanks guys. I’ll see how it goes and if my joints start to feel crappy then I’ll cut the cycle short and do 4 weeks of ralox.


#18

I tell ya, 60mg if you’re running it solo…


#19

I’ll report back.

Also, if I run test next time either with epi or on its own, which would I take, how much, AI, etc.

Also, it would be ok to start test ASAP and just run it as long as I run the epi for? Still need an AI if I’m running it with epi?


#20

An update.

Today is week 2, day 4.
I did first 2 days at 20mg/day and the rest of the 1st week at 30mg/day
Week 2 : 40mg/day
Week 3 : 40mg/day

Not sure whether I want to go up to 50 or 60mg. I am definitely putting on some muscle and leaning out. Strength feels great. Sleep has been a bitch (it’s almost 2am now). I’ve been averaging probably 5-6 hours, one time only 3. I have felt great and I have plenty of energy throughout the day. I’ve been drinking plenty of water and taking joint supplements and so far no noticeable joint pain.

Gyno tenderness has gone down. I can push on it and not get that sharp pain that I would normally get. It takes much more pressure now to feel some pain. Nipples are still puffy.

On the very first day of week 3, I was extremely lethargic. Most likely the epi or my body trying to catch up on sleep. I did feel like I got some much needed rest on that day though. I upped my carb intake and made sure I ate my meals on time the next day and I felt better. I kept the carbs up and ate my meals on time again the next day and everything felt back to normal. Everything feels great now.

Cycobushmaster, if you read this or anyone else, I read your thread about pct and I see you recommend Aromasin at 25mg/day. Would you say I should do that with my pct? I am doing the epi for 6 weeks, so my pct will be 6 weeks. I was going to use ralox instead of tamox. You also mentioned that ralox isn’t very effective after 4 weeks, so if I do a 6 week pct, should I do ralox for 4 weeks, then switch to Nolva for the next 2 weeks? I already have both ralox and Nolva.

Do I stop the Aromasin 1 or 2 weeks after I stop the ralox/nolva?

Should I do:
Week 1: Ralox 60mg/day, Aromasin 25mg/day
Week 2: Ralox 60mg/day, Aromasin 25mg/day
Week 3: Ralox 60mg/day, Aromasin 25mg/day
Week 4: Ralox 60mg/day, Aromasin 25mg/day
Week 5: Nolva 20mg/day, Aromasin 25mg/day
Week 6: Nolva 20mg/day, Aromasin 25mg/day
Week 7: Aromasin 25mg/day
Week 8: Aromasin 25mg/day or possibly 25mg EoD

What do you think?

Also, any thoughts out there about adding albuterol to my cycle at this moment? 4mg 1-3 times daily. I’m cutting quite nicely and I thought about adding albuterol. Can I do 1 week on, 1 week off in order to not have to use keto? I read about some people using it for much longer but with keto and then I read about people using it 2-3 times per week as a pre workout only and not needing keto. My thought was 1 week on/off and maybe do that twice and then cycle off albut for a few weeks.

Thanks for reading guys. I appreciate any info