T Nation

Epi & Sust 250 Cycle


#1

Hi All,

Just want some opinions really.

I am an experienced lifter (4 years) who has done 2 cycles of epi previously with great results. I also have good knowledge of anabolics in general, nutrition and in particular weight training (I am a PT in my spare time)

I am looking to do my 3rd epi cycle literally within the next few days. I am planning to run 5 weeks @40ed which I think will yield great results as I have my diet and training on point. I have my PCT ready, so Nolva, PES erase pro and also various on cycle protection supps. Tried and tested that variation in my last two cycles and recovered well.

I have a a supply of sust 250 too which was given to me by a fellow lifter. Experienced users that I train with have all advised to inject 250mg a week to act as a base. It's my understanding I am not going to see much in terms of gains just because it's a weak dose and its only 5 weeks BUT it will act as a good base to counteract sides of low libido, lethargy etc. In my last cycle I added 4-ad oral which I thought made a good difference so i have finally plucked up the courage to use test instead.

You reckon I am good to go with epi 40mg per day along with sust250 once a week inj for 5 weeks? I thought I could bump up to 500mg per week but then I guess epi wouldn't be needed however I DO want run my epi course.

Anyones input is most appreciated. (sorry for long post)


#2

250mg/wk is a fine base - let the epi do its work. I assume you have an AI on hand.

My only issue is that it's not ideal because it's a short cycle and you have test-d in that sust, which has a very long half life. You may need to wait 3 weeks or more after your last pin before the test clears enough to begin PCT. So from day one of your cycle to last day of PCT you're talking 13 total weeks.

Seems like a lot of effort for only a 5 week cycle. With such a short cycle I'd want to run ace or prop instead, which would also probably allow you to get away with an abbreviated 1-2 week PCT, that you can start within 2-3 days after last pin. No more than 7 weeks invested for a 5 week cycle - not bad.

Or if you insist on running sust bump it up to 500 and run a full 10-12 weeks to make the most of it, then do a full PCT.


#3

Based on what you have said it seems like this would be a good time for you to jump into a proper cycle.

Epi week 1-5
sust 250mg 2x a week 1-12
arimidex 0.5mg eod week 1-12
arimidex 0.25mg eod week 13-16
HCG 250iu 2x a week 1-14

PCT week 15-20
nolvadex 20/20/20/20/10/10 (mg per day for each week. Dose EOD for the last week)

Edit - when running sust you may need to wait 3 weeks before starting PCT due to the longer half life, however i am not sure if this is true for 500mg.


#4

Thanks for the reply mate. 13 weeks is a long time but it's only a few more weeks compared to and epi only cycle 5 weeks with a 4 week pct. would it work if I waited 2-3 weeks once I had stopped epi and stopped pinning before starting pct? What would be the issue in that window of no gear whilst waiting for pct to start?


#5

Actually if you were to run an epi-only cycle you'd be able to start PCT the day after your last dose, because epistane only has about a 6hr half life. Also, with a 5 week cycle, a 4 week PCT is massive overkill. At 5 weeks you will recover much faster and probably don't need a day over two weeks of PCT. So that would be 7 weeks total. And running prop or ace as a base (which I'd highly recommend) won't set your PCT back more than 2 or 3 days.

If you're going to do the sust, you need to give it 18-21 days to clear your system after a cycle and before PCT, otherwise it is still suppressing you and making your PCT a waste of time and money, since the purpose of PCT is to recover. You can't recover while you still have a compound in your blood causing suppression. You shouldn't have any "issues" in that window, per say, other than the suppression. Once it clears you will probably start to notice your T levels are low, and that's the perfect time to commence PCT. But if you do sust for 5 weeks, you will be suppressed for ~8 weeks, which will also require a longer PCT than say if you ran prop for 5 weeks and were suppressed for no more than 5 1/2 weeks.

That's all I'm getting at. I don't think sust is necessarily a bad idea, just pointing out that in my mind it's not ideal for a 5 week cycle. Whatever you decide to do will probably be fine.


#6

I think I may just continue with my epi cycle and just save the sust for a proper 10-12 week cycle at 500mg per week.


#7

Hey man, if the sides of running it without a test base don't bother you then go for it. I've heard of plenty of people running epi only with good results.

I'm thinking about trying it myself, but I'm on 210mg/week test cyp for TRT so I already have a built in test base :slight_smile: So hopefully I will see better than average results.


#8

Hey I have a better idea. Why not front load with the sust and then taper off toward the end? This whole time we've been discussing this like you have to be taking sust up until the last day of your cycle, and that's just not the case. You can take the sust for the first 2-3 weeks, which will carry you all the way through, problem solved.


#9

That could work! So 500mg first week then 250mg for the next two weeks? When I front load would I inject twice in the first week 3 days apart?


#10

Yeah that's not a bad idea. If it were me I'd take 500 the first two weeks then 250 the 3rd week.

Twice a week or E3D injections are fine.


#11

don't use sustanon in a 5 week cycle. It's a really bad idea. None of the ways you've proposed using it are smart. Leave the injectables out until you're ready to do them right . Don't try to reinvent the wheel here.


#12

Thanks for your input mate..can you educate me and explain why it's a bad idea? If I were to give the injectables a miss, what could I use as a replacement for a test base to counteract on sides whilst on epi?


#13

nothing really. you said sides haven't been a problem before, right? That shouldn't change.

So the problem with Sustanon is that, of the 250mg of test, 100mg is test decanoate. As long as the test dcanoate is in your system (and it can take 3+ weeks after your cycle to clear), your PCT can't be employed effectively. At the same time, that's not a lot of testosterone. It's less than half the sustanon total mg's. So between your last pin and the clearance time, you're going to have to deal with relatively low testosterone. You're just putting off recovery, basically, without any added benefit. I believe that, overall, this is actually worse than an Epi only cycle. More isn't ALWAYS better. I'd rather run the epi for 5 weeks and start recovery right after the last day of the cycle, rather than run a 5 week cycle that includes a small amount of sust and have to wait an additional 3 weeks to start recovery.

Juggs's proposal is moderately better, but it's not perfect. Even that is going to put you at starting your pct a full week after your last epi dose, and you've only run 3 weeks of test during that time. That's not enough time to get any results out of it. I suppose it would potentially help counter any sexual dysfunction that might occur in an epi cycle, if that's something you're prone to, but it would also put you in a situation where you'll have to run an AI, something you probably don't need to do with Epi alone.


#14

Yeah I take what you are saying on board and it does make sense. Why would I have to use an AI? That's surely just worse case scenario isn't it?


#15

If you run injectable testosterone, you need to run an AI. It's not optional, despite what some people will tell you.

Here's why: Too many people gauge the necessity of an AI by outward, visible symptoms, specifically by whether or not they get gyno. This is only one of many problems that can occur through high levels of estrogen. You need to control your estrogen appropriately, period. An AI should be run from day 1 of any testosterone-based cycle.

Another note as far as gyno goes.... Once you see it, it's mostly too late. You can't fix it with an AI, you can just stop further growth. That's a problem. Don't treat the problem AFTER you see it. Prevent the issue in the first place.