T Nation

EOD vs E3.5D?


#1

Hey fellas,

As I bounce around hormone forums, one thing I always see is discussion on test cyp injection frequency. In the injection protocol post here, I see reference to EOD. Elsewhere, folks say E3.5D is better, and or even E5D.

I see KSMAN seems to recommend EOD - this make you feel better? When I started TRT, it was injected EOD but moved to E3.5D. I am not sure about feeling, but I know it took less test EOD to achieve similar levels to E3.5D.

There any consensus here? Thoughts? Feelings? Concerns? What do you guys do?

Thanks!
Jim


#2

EOD on paper is better but if you feel the same who cares?

Your levels will be the same ON AVERAGE.


#3

I started with E7D, I had to talk my Doc into that often. He was old school with EOW (every other week). Without his knowledge, I switched to E3.5D, the eventually to EOD.

E7D was horrible, peaks and valleys, E3.5D was a little better. Without question I feel the best on EOD. I often forget it’s ‘shot day’, something that would have never happened with the other two frequencies.

A variable that muddies the water a little is that when I switched to EOD, I also switched to SubQ. I was able to reduce my dosage as well.


#4

[quote]Igs wrote:
EOD on paper is better but if you feel the same who cares?

Your levels will be the same ON AVERAGE.[/quote]

No… They won’t. Less test takes you further when injecting EOD. As far as feeling, I am not sure to be honest. Generally I don’t hunt around for dose or injection advice unless I am not feeling like I think I should be.

-Jim


#5

[quote]redjr wrote:
I started with E7D, I had to talk my Doc into that often. He was old school with EOW (every other week). Without his knowledge, I switched to E3.5D, the eventually to EOD.

E7D was horrible, peaks and valleys, E3.5D was a little better. Without question I feel the best on EOD. I often forget it’s ‘shot day’, something that would have never happened with the other two frequencies.

A variable that muddies the water a little is that when I switched to EOD, I also switched to SubQ. I was able to reduce my dosage as well. [/quote]

Thanks! That’s what I am looking for, others who have made the move in either direction. Guess I just have to play with it some more. Just don’t feel like I am dialed in yet despite 8 months on TRT so far.

-Jim


#6

When I started TRT it was 100mg per week, with 50mg every 3.5 Days. By the next shot day I always started feeling “low”. After three months I added HCG into the mix, dividing the HCG dose into 2x per week shots. At this time I was also raised to 160mg of test cypionate per week. This helped, but still felt something was missing on certain days.

For the last couple months I’ve switched to 3x per week shots of test; Sunday 50mg, Tuesday 50mg, and Thursday 60mg (a little higher on Thursdays to compensate for the 3-day interval). I divide my HCG into lower doses and do that on days I’m not injecting the test. This seems to have fixed a LOT of my issues. I’ve been looking back at my labs, and my TT still wasn’t high, even at 160mg per week. I think my extremely low SHBG may have something to do with the fact that I seem to be metabolizing the testosterone at a really fast rate. I’m getting ready to run more labs in the next two weeks, and I’m very interested to see what the changes will be, after switching doses and injection frequency.

It would be interesting to know how others’ lab numbers, like SHBG level, ultimately affect what dosing frequency seems to work best for them.


#7

These are the issues that I see, in no particular order.

With infrequent injections:

  • one does not feel well with peaks and crashes with T crash into a pool of peaked estrogens
  • the high T peaks seem to promote more E2 and more T+SHBG, lowering average FT
  • labs are less useful as one’s levels are not static
  • with changing FT/Bio_T, steady serum anastrozole levels cannot match changing FT/Bio_T levels and E2 is not managed well

With E3.5D, one can inject T and take 1/2 weekly anastrozole dose and rising and falling T and anastrozole levels will not be steady, but will somewhat rise and fall together. This seems to work well for some. Its a bit much to ask some guys to do an EOD routine.

If one is injected hCG, that is best done EOD and that might be a motive for some to take everything to EOD as mixed E3.5D and EOD will be unmanageable for most.

And ones needs/expectations do change over time and some will change what they do for no particular reason. And don’t forget “needle fatigue” after a few years.


#8

[quote]KSman wrote:
These are the issues that I see, in no particular order.

With infrequent injections:

  • one does not feel well with peaks and crashes with T crash into a pool of peaked estrogens
  • the high T peaks seem to promote more E2 and more T+SHBG, lowering average FT
  • labs are less useful as one’s levels are not static
  • with changing FT/Bio_T, steady serum anastrozole levels cannot match changing FT/Bio_T levels and E2 is not managed well

With E3.5D, one can inject T and take 1/2 weekly anastrozole dose and rising and falling T and anastrozole levels will not be steady, but will somewhat rise and fall together. This seems to work well for some. Its a bit much to ask some guys to do an EOD routine.

If one is injected hCG, that is best done EOD and that might be a motive for some to take everything to EOD as mixed E3.5D and EOD will be unmanageable for most.

And ones needs/expectations do change over time and some will change what they do for no particular reason. And don’t forget “needle fatigue” after a few years.[/quote]

Appreciate the input. Do you inject EOD? Have you tried the other options?

Since starting TRT, I actually struggle with low estrogen. I haven’t had a lab come back yet with a sensitive E (Labcorp) of over 20. Easy answer is higher T but… oddly enough, when T starts to cross the 900 mark, my nips get uncomfortably sensitive. Just had gyno removal surgery on left but the right, despite no gyno, does get irritated when my T gets to high. All the while, estrogen is tested and continuously low. Anyway - to keep my own thread on track…

Part of the reason I moved from EOD to E3.5D was thinking the larger pulses would raise estrogen a bit. Didn’t really happen. Going to try and re-add HCG in the near future but who knows how long I stay on it. As I have posted in here before, I get bad sides from it at any dose.

Thanks again,
Jim


#9

I did EOD for years and am still on EOD, but my schedule often slips… declined dedication.


#10

[quote]KSman wrote:
I did EOD for years and am still on EOD, but my schedule often slips… declined dedication.[/quote]

All this time I just thought you were a robot programmed with mountains of hormone literature.

-Jim


#11

Getting old sucks!


#12

Idk how many times I have to mention this on this forum: LabCorp Sensitive E2 test under reports. On regular assey you will over double it. No wonder your nipples are itching. Your E2 is higher than you think it is. I have shit ton of tests to prove this.

You are welcome to use the sensitive assey but if you do, stop chasing the number (ie 22). Instead go by how you feel.


#13

[quote]Igs wrote:
Idk how many times I have to mention this on this forum: LabCorp Sensitive E2 test under reports. On regular assey you will over double it. No wonder your nipples are itching. Your E2 is higher than you think it is. I have shit ton of tests to prove this.

You are welcome to use the sensitive assey but if you do, stop chasing the number (ie 22). Instead go by how you feel.[/quote]

I thought it was understood that it reports lower. Depending on the assay, you shoot for different numbers. Yes, the standard test reports almost double, by design. If you know where you should be on either test, then it shouldn’t really matter.

It’s not a bad test. Just different from the plain estrogen assay, right?

-Jim


#14

Yes, knowing where to be in either test makes sense. The problem on this forum becomes when people using different assays all chase the KSman’s holy grail of 22


#15

I used the E2 lab report from Labcorp for years via LEF. I don’t know exactly which that one was.