T Nation

Energy Loss During Workout

I’m doing WS4SB. About half way through each workout, I get really exhausted and tend to take longer rest periods(from 20-40 sec to like 1-5 min), without which, I lose reps. I’m trying to figure out what I can do to keep going strong.

I’m taking a multi vitamin, Flameout, Creatine, Rez-V, Alpha Male, and taking plenty of protein. my results have been good, but I feel like they would be better if i kept my workout shorter and kept that pump going. I was thinking about getting Surge pre workout, but I’m not sure if that’ll fix it. I also don’t know if I would be better off dropping the Rez-V and Alpha Male for different supplements. I can’t afford to take the whole Biotest line and would like to keep it reasonable.

Right now i’m taking everything as prescribed on the bottle. pre workout i have some coffee with either milk and sugar, or a banana, and i take my protein with creatine after words.

I still consider myself a beginner at weights, I’m coming up on a year solid of working out, trying a few different programs. I originally started working out a about 2 years ago, but it didn’t last long after my job went became to energy intensive, so this it round 2. I’m just trying to avoid burnout.

Thanks

How does your diet look? How many calories, your weight / height / etc.?

I’m not one to advise, but you’ll probably get asked for these details fairly quickly :slight_smile:

[quote]CAManley wrote:

rest periods(from 20-40 sec )

[/quote]

That’s your problem. You should be taking around 2-3 mins rest between sets. Not 20-40 seconds.

Those rest periods seem kind of long compared to what I’ve read in a few articles here. I’m still mentally drained when i do the lifts though, I feel like I’m not getting everything out of each lift.

I don’t really track calories. A typical day for me is a cup of greek yogurt with about 20 grams of protein powder in it for breakfast (about 35g total). a cup of almonds, and a chicken breast (or 2 chicken fillets, i don’t weigh them but I usually think of it as 30g of protein) with some kind of vegies for lunch (always with lots of olive oil), 40g protein shake a few hours after lunch, and either a carb heavy dinner on workout days with another 40g protein shake, or something simple on off days (i’m pretty bad about dinner, a bowl of vegies, more almonds, a V8…), again with a 40g shake.

I weigh 180, 5’11"
My goal is overall fitness, heavy on the strength and size.
I don’t do PR’s, but i worked up to (recently) 5 reps at 185 for bench, and 245 for DL. I’m not doing squats right now, since I am naturally quad dominant, and WS4SB has you pick squat or DL for leg days, and i’m keeping it to DL variants as my main lift and doing the quads supplementary.

So basically, I’m planning on adding Surge WF to what i take, unless someone tells me i should maybe take Beta-7 instead, or drop the Alpha Male and take Surge and Beta-7, or drop Alpha Male and Rez-V and try Anaconda and MAG-10 instead of Surge WF or Beta-7 or something. someone tell me how to spend my money. :slight_smile:

That looks more like a cutting diet than a bulking diet. In fact, I eat more than that and I’m losing 3Ibs or so per week. If I were you, I’d try and rely a lot less on supplements and sort out your diet first; supplements are there for once you have everything else in check.

Where did you read 20 second rests? Thibs in one of his recent spills disagreed with timed rests, stating something along the lines of rest long enough to give full effort to the next set, but not so long that you lose focus.

Lengthen your rest periods, eat more food, and stop depending on supps so much.

It’s a hard question to answer when we’re not sure what your day-to-day schedule’s like. I used to have the same problem no matter how much I ate/how clean/etc, just because I was going into the gym after long 10 hour workdays in the office. I switched to working out in the morning, went to bed earlier, and that worked perfectly. If you’re stressed outside of the gym, try to time the workout when you’re under the least amount of stress.

[quote]tareila wrote:
It’s a hard question to answer when we’re not sure what your day-to-day schedule’s like.[/quote]

Dude, come on…

He’s taking 20-40 sec of rest between sets and complaining he’s out of gas halfway through his workout.

This one doesn’t need a full assessment.

[quote]CAManley wrote:
Those rest periods seem kind of long compared to what I’ve read in a few articles here. I’m still mentally drained when i do the lifts though, I feel like I’m not getting everything out of each lift.

I don’t really track calories. A typical day for me is a cup of greek yogurt with about 20 grams of protein powder in it for breakfast (about 35g total). a cup of almonds, and a chicken breast (or 2 chicken fillets, i don’t weigh them but I usually think of it as 30g of protein) with some kind of vegies for lunch (always with lots of olive oil), 40g protein shake a few hours after lunch, and either a carb heavy dinner on workout days with another 40g protein shake, or something simple on off days (i’m pretty bad about dinner, a bowl of vegies, more almonds, a V8…), again with a 40g shake.

I weigh 180, 5’11"
My goal is overall fitness, heavy on the strength and size.
I don’t do PR’s, but i worked up to (recently) 5 reps at 185 for bench, and 245 for DL. I’m not doing squats right now, since I am naturally quad dominant, and WS4SB has you pick squat or DL for leg days, and i’m keeping it to DL variants as my main lift and doing the quads supplementary.

So basically, I’m planning on adding Surge WF to what i take, unless someone tells me i should maybe take Beta-7 instead, or drop the Alpha Male and take Surge and Beta-7, or drop Alpha Male and Rez-V and try Anaconda and MAG-10 instead of Surge WF or Beta-7 or something. someone tell me how to spend my money. :slight_smile:

[/quote]

1- stop reading articles.

2- if you want to gain weight, learn how to eat

3- keep doing squats. You aren’t quad dominant. Alternate a squat and a deadlift movement each week, and use the opposite as an assistance exercise.

4- stop buying supplements. Spend your money on meat, eggs, and milk.

Now you have the tools. You’ve been given the knowledge. It is up to you to use it or not.

[quote]Grumpig Hunt wrote:
Thibs in one of his recent spills disagreed with timed rests, stating something along the lines of rest long enough to give full effort to the next set, but not so long that you lose focus.[/quote]
yep, i never said i timed my rests. I have a hard time finding other sources, though i believe that thibs has said that a few times. I also didn’t say that i do ramp my weights, and my first few sets of each exercise don’t take a lot out of me, those are the fast ones, the later sets tend to take longer, maybe a minute? mintute and a half? like i said i’ve never timed, but my first few exercises even the long rest periods are way shorter than the rest periods towards the end of the workout.

So i’m assuming the consensus is that i should wait longer than i feel necessary at the beginning of the exercise, so that i can maintain a little longer? does this have to do with CNS fatigue or something? I will try this, though it seems like it may make my workouts a little long. thanks.

I bought a car and pay for insurance and gas so that i get more out of my day through commuting faster. this is the same reason i buy supplements, so that i get more out of my time working out. I didn’t know so many of you were supplement free, especially considering that not only are you on a forum belonging to a supplement company, but that all over the rest of it, it seems people take a great deal, and get a great deal out of them. I don’t mind going off of the supps though i do feel better when i’m on them and seem to be able to do more, so i don’t see why i should stop and how that’s any more dependent than the standard increase in protein consumption that you are advocating, w/o which, you would not be experiencing your maximum gains.

but yeah, thanks JayPierce, i’ll try what you said, though i’m still looking for a reason to give up my supps.

Eat more. eat more what? I’m getting between 150 and 190 grams of protein per day. i eat A LOT of vegies, and A LOT of nuts. i am not losing weight, so i doubt it is a caloric defect. I don’t eat a lot of food that gives insulin spikes, except around the time i workout, since i started doing this I’ve felt a lot better about my lifts, insulin spikes have been a workout tool for years. i don’t think a larger meal of simple carbs at workout time would help, but i get the feeling it would drag my workout down, though i am willing to try it if that is what you are recommending, though I see no reason put forth as to what and why i should eat anything specifically.

pertaining to eggs, meat, and milk, i don’t think i’m lacking in meat in my diet, since at least one meal a day is loaded with it, and often 2 meals a day. I didn’t really think to mention it, but i do drink a lot of milk. I would have to eat half a dozen eggs every morning to get the same protein i get out of my current breakfast. if i took eggs with a shake, i would still have to eat 2, I would be eating less calories, and from experience, i certainly would be hungry faster.

I sure wish you were right, and that i had balanced legs. Having not done fitness in high school, and sitting most of my life, I have developed some pretty bad anterior pelvic tilt that i’ve been working on correcting. its just recently that i can be standing all day at work without having severe back pain from it, among other symptoms that have been going away. so yeah, I think i’ll work those into my routine when i feel that it won’t jeopardize my postural gains.

I don’t know why i even bothered explaining myself to someone who doesn’t think i should be educate myself and read about the routines I’m doing. Now an argument works like this, you have 2 premises, and a conclusion. for the argument to be valid, if the 2 premises are true, the conclusion must be true. now, i’m having a stated issue (p1), and you do are not(p2), the way you are doing everything must be better/correct and will fix my issue (conclusion), is an invalid argument. though after reading through your training logs, i think the reason you don’t get tired is that your workout only hits each muscle group (usually) for 1 exercise, very little supplemental work, maybe instead of telling other people not to read, you should read a routine written by one of the greats, and just do it, instead of putting together an easy version of the 5x5 program, which as most people seem ti agree on, isn’t as good at the 531 program, which i can see you’ve been reading up on. tell me more about how you’re better and smarter than TC, Thibs, Defranco, Tate, etc, all people who seem to know their stuff, are published, and well read.

anyway,

tareila, that’s a very good point and i will try to focus on it a little to see how it effects my workouts. I farm, meaning some days i sit for 12 hours, come home, then workout, and some days i am on my feet for 10 hours bending over and picking weeds or placing mouse/mole bait, then come home and workout. 2 very different things. recently its been more of the walking and bending rather than sitting, or working stationary on equipment maintenance, and that might be the reason for the recent energy issues.

[quote]CAManley wrote:
I have developed some pretty bad anterior pelvic tilt that i’ve been working on correcting. its just recently that i can be standing all day at work without having severe back pain from it, among other symptoms that have been going away. so yeah, I think i’ll work those into my routine when i feel that it won’t jeopardize my postural gains.[/quote]

If you haven’t already, check out the “Neanderthal No More” articles on here, a lot of the stuff there helped me with back issues.

[quote]CAManley wrote:
I’m doing WS4SB. About half way through each workout, I get really exhausted and tend to take longer rest periods(from 20-40 sec to like 1-5 min), without which, I lose reps. I’m trying to figure out what I can do to keep going strong.

I’m taking a multi vitamin, Flameout, Creatine, Rez-V, Alpha Male, and taking plenty of protein. my results have been good, but I feel like they would be better if i kept my workout shorter and kept that pump going. I was thinking about getting Surge pre workout, but I’m not sure if that’ll fix it. I also don’t know if I would be better off dropping the Rez-V and Alpha Male for different supplements. I can’t afford to take the whole Biotest line and would like to keep it reasonable.

Right now i’m taking everything as prescribed on the bottle. pre workout i have some coffee with either milk and sugar, or a banana, and i take my protein with creatine after words.

I still consider myself a beginner at weights, I’m coming up on a year solid of working out, trying a few different programs. I originally started working out a about 2 years ago, but it didn’t last long after my job went became to energy intensive, so this it round 2. I’m just trying to avoid burnout.

Thanks[/quote]

I would take longer breaks 1-3 minutes and see if you don’t have more energy.

Also how long after pre-workout meal do you wait before you start lifting? I found if I ate a sweet potato or bowl of oatmeal with pre-workout meal I was good to go for a lot longer, especially on dead lift days. Eat good carbs don’t fret so much about supplements.

Lastly stop “spilling your seed on the ground” on workout day.

3 minutes between strength/speed work
60-90 sec between hypertrophy work

if you’re not doing that, then that’s your problem. doesn’t matter if you feel fine 60 seconds after a heavy triple. you wait the entire 3 minutes.

[quote]CAManley wrote:
I bought a car and pay for insurance and gas so that i get more out of my day through commuting faster. this is the same reason i buy supplements, so that i get more out of my time working out. I didn’t know so many of you were supplement free, especially considering that not only are you on a forum belonging to a supplement company, but that all over the rest of it, it seems people take a great deal, and get a great deal out of them. I don’t mind going off of the supps though i do feel better when i’m on them and seem to be able to do more, so i don’t see why i should stop and how that’s any more dependent than the standard increase in protein consumption that you are advocating, w/o which, you would not be experiencing your maximum gains.

but yeah, thanks JayPierce, i’ll try what you said, though i’m still looking for a reason to give up my supps.
[/quote]

my opinion of supplements is they supplement what you are doing. they are meant to add to what you are doing and/or fill in any holes. if what you are doing sucks that you are adding more suck. if what you do sucks then fixing the sucky program will fill in the holes better then supplements.

that is why i am against supps, people dont even know how and when to use them to supplement for their goals. too many times when i trained people in the past i would fix their program, get them off supps and they started to see results when before they were stalled out. i got them to workout harder, rest harder, and eat harder. worked as long as they followed the plan.

now after a few months of that i would get them back on their supps and if they saw results they were minimal. to me it showed them that supps are mainly a draw on your wallet and not much help. the very few supps i would recommend were creatine, multi-vitamin, and fish oil.

[quote]louiek wrote:
3 minutes between strength/speed work
60-90 sec between hypertrophy work

if you’re not doing that, then that’s your problem. doesn’t matter if you feel fine 60 seconds after a heavy triple. you wait the entire 3 minutes.[/quote]
And believe me, most of us know exactly how hard that can be sometimes. When you’re amped and ready to rock, it’s tough to keep your hands off the bar. But it’s worth it!

I had to get a GymBoss to help time my rest periods. Now I just have to wait for the beep… wait for the beep… wait for the beep…

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
I had to get a GymBoss to help time my rest periods. Now I just have to wait for the beep… wait for the beep… wait for the beep…[/quote]

i use the crap out of my gym boss. i about to need another one as the one i have is iffy from overuse. great advice here.

[quote]CAManley wrote:

[quote]Grumpig Hunt wrote:
Thibs in one of his recent spills disagreed with timed rests, stating something along the lines of rest long enough to give full effort to the next set, but not so long that you lose focus.[/quote]

yep, i never said i timed my rests. I have a hard time finding other sources, though i believe that thibs has said that a few times. I also didn’t say that i do ramp my weights, and my first few sets of each exercise don’t take a lot out of me, those are the fast ones, the later sets tend to take longer, maybe a minute? mintute and a half? like i said i’ve never timed, but my first few exercises even the long rest periods are way shorter than the rest periods towards the end of the workout.

So i’m assuming the consensus is that i should wait longer than i feel necessary at the beginning of the exercise, so that i can maintain a little longer? does this have to do with CNS fatigue or something? I will try this, though it seems like it may make my workouts a little long. thanks.

I bought a car and pay for insurance and gas so that i get more out of my day through commuting faster. this is the same reason i buy supplements, so that i get more out of my time working out. I didn’t know so many of you were supplement free, especially considering that not only are you on a forum belonging to a supplement company, but that all over the rest of it, it seems people take a great deal, and get a great deal out of them. I don’t mind going off of the supps though i do feel better when i’m on them and seem to be able to do more, so i don’t see why i should stop and how that’s any more dependent than the standard increase in protein consumption that you are advocating, w/o which, you would not be experiencing your maximum gains.

but yeah, thanks JayPierce, i’ll try what you said, though i’m still looking for a reason to give up my supps.

Eat more. eat more what? I’m getting between 150 and 190 grams of protein per day. i eat A LOT of vegies, and A LOT of nuts. i am not losing weight, so i doubt it is a caloric defect. I don’t eat a lot of food that gives insulin spikes, except around the time i workout, since i started doing this I’ve felt a lot better about my lifts, insulin spikes have been a workout tool for years. i don’t think a larger meal of simple carbs at workout time would help, but i get the feeling it would drag my workout down, though i am willing to try it if that is what you are recommending, though I see no reason put forth as to what and why i should eat anything specifically.

pertaining to eggs, meat, and milk, i don’t think i’m lacking in meat in my diet, since at least one meal a day is loaded with it, and often 2 meals a day. I didn’t really think to mention it, but i do drink a lot of milk. I would have to eat half a dozen eggs every morning to get the same protein i get out of my current breakfast. if i took eggs with a shake, i would still have to eat 2, I would be eating less calories, and from experience, i certainly would be hungry faster.

I sure wish you were right, and that i had balanced legs. Having not done fitness in high school, and sitting most of my life, I have developed some pretty bad anterior pelvic tilt that i’ve been working on correcting. its just recently that i can be standing all day at work without having severe back pain from it, among other symptoms that have been going away. so yeah, I think i’ll work those into my routine when i feel that it won’t jeopardize my postural gains.

I don’t know why i even bothered explaining myself to someone who doesn’t think i should be educate myself and read about the routines I’m doing. Now an argument works like this, you have 2 premises, and a conclusion. for the argument to be valid, if the 2 premises are true, the conclusion must be true. now, i’m having a stated issue (p1), and you do are not(p2), the way you are doing everything must be better/correct and will fix my issue (conclusion), is an invalid argument. though after reading through your training logs, i think the reason you don’t get tired is that your workout only hits each muscle group (usually) for 1 exercise, very little supplemental work, maybe instead of telling other people not to read, you should read a routine written by one of the greats, and just do it, instead of putting together an easy version of the 5x5 program, which as most people seem ti agree on, isn’t as good at the 531 program, which i can see you’ve been reading up on. tell me more about how you’re better and smarter than TC, Thibs, Defranco, Tate, etc, all people who seem to know their stuff, are published, and well read.

anyway,

tareila, that’s a very good point and i will try to focus on it a little to see how it effects my workouts. I farm, meaning some days i sit for 12 hours, come home, then workout, and some days i am on my feet for 10 hours bending over and picking weeds or placing mouse/mole bait, then come home and workout. 2 very different things. recently its been more of the walking and bending rather than sitting, or working stationary on equipment maintenance, and that might be the reason for the recent energy issues.[/quote]

Jim Wendler: “My suggestion is to quit thinking you’re quad dominant. Unless your quads hang over your kneecaps like an elephant’s testicles, you’re not quad dominant. You’re just hamstring weak.”

Look, I’m all for educating yourself on a routine before you do it. But a lot of people (especially beginners) drown in the information and overanalyze everything. Being beginners, they also don’t know what is good advice and what is pure crap. Resting 30 seconds between heavy sets is pure crap.

I don’t understand why you think I don’t get tired? I never said anything like that. I am just like every other human being, I get tired.

Frankly I don’t care that 5/3/1 is more popular then a 5x5 program. As you know, I did the 5/3/1 program for about a year and a half. I enjoyed it, got stronger, and learned a lot. The principles behind the routine are still very much a part of my training.

I don’t know where you get off saying that the routine I put together is an “easy” version of a 5x5 program. It is 95% the same as any of the 5x5 routines out there. They all have the same philosophies behind them. Futhermore, nothing I do is easy. I train hard and acheive my goals.

I understand that as a beginner, you think it is increadibly important to be on the perfect program, take all the cutting edge supplements, or else you won’t get big and strong. I have been there, as have 99% of all lifters. But it is simply not true. Just about any training program will work, as long as it’s not completely retarded.

As Dave Tate said, “It’s not about the program. If you look at all the strongest guys out there, they’re all doing the same shit. It might be a little bit different, but it’s all the same shit.” < this is paraphrased, it was in one of the BIG seminar videos

Also, I never said or infered that I was better or smater then any of the authors you mentioned. But show me where any of those guys said you should rest 30 seconds between heavy sets.

Since you took the time to look through my training logs, I looked through your posts. 2 years ago, you made a thread in which you said you deadlifted 205 for 4 reps, and weighed 215 pounds.

In the past 2 years, you lost 35 pounds, and your deadlift went up to 245. You need to spend less time worrying about having the perfect program or the best supplements, and just plain lift and eat.

As Jim Wendler said “If you want to go to Chicago, just get in the car and drive.”

OP

Liaten to their advice. Although I am not keen on waiting the entire 3 minutes if you feel amped at 90 seconds. But the short answer is–YES it is CNS fatigue. Heavy weights take 3-4 times as long to recover from than bodybuilding style pump work because the CNS is what gets the most damage.

So rest more dammit.

As far as supplements go, unless you really, really can afford all that, you dont need all of it. Protein, Surge or carbs for workouts, creatine, thats about it. Multivitamins are of course useful.

Thank you guys. Chris87, i appreciate your latest post, though i feel like Jim was splitting hairs, you’re right, i’m still correcting an imbalance though. I never heard about the gym boss, but used my shooting timer par setting to make sure i rested long enough between sets today and it made my session much better. I’ll drop the supps (except i’m keeping Fishoil, and multi vitamins) and see how i feel. As suggested, i ate before my workout instead of after and that might have contributed to the better session also.