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Endless Training


I am currently taking the following supplements daily

Multivitamin w/o Iron
Vit C
Grape Seed Extract
Fish Oil
Vit E (Alpha)
Asain/Korean Ginseng

In addition, every day I eat one serving of the following pretty religiously:

Wheat Germ
Coconut Oil
Whole Wheat Bread
Ketchup/Low Sodium V8

My primary goals are to increase immunity and of course protect against degenerative diseases so that I can continue to train and work hard. (I also, being in my mid forties, want to decrease wear and tear on the skin and anything else that will be ?anti-aging?.)

Do you see any holes in my regimen? Any must-have supplements and/or foods that should be added?


Eliminate the iron. In men it can be cancer causative.

I would not waste my time on Ginseng. I have never read a reputable study which indicated that it helped anyone.

How much Vit-C are you taking? And how much of all the other things?

I eat 9 to 12 servings of fruits and vegetables each day. That may seem high to many, but it has been proven that the higher the intake of fruits and vegetables the lower the chance of disease.

Eat at least 3 servings of fruits and 3 servings of vegatbles per day.


Looks fine to me. I'm no specialist. Just run, lift weights and eat healthy. And love every part of it. Remember to enjoy your rest, too.


I'd look at adding Alpha - lipoic acid and Acetyl - L - carnitine - arginate (Acetyl is important). Other than that what you are doing looks good - but had to laugh at the ketchup addition.


Control your insulin via low GI/ balanced meals and insulin sensetizing agents:
r-ALA / Chromium and the EFA's : Fish Oil + High Lignan flax oil or flax oil + sesamin

Keep your mitochondria alive/ active with adequate ALCAR . .stacked w/ r-ALA and work as a powerful anti-inflamatory systemically:


A time released protein such as Low-Carb Grow! for all shakes except PWO when the hgih GI is needed, the use Surge ( possibly fortify w/ additional BCAA's and Glutamine [ 10g ea] )

In lieu of muti-vite (smart w/o iron- well done), I would use a generous serving of a greens concentrate fortified w/ vitamins- I use GREENS+MULTI+ . . vitamins more the way nature intended our body to find them :wink:

Best of luck, nice methodical approach :slightly_smiling:



Where is the meat?

Throw out the bread and V8, both man-made bs. Blueberries everyday....no.

Do you believe that we are the result of Darwinian natural selection????

Meaning do you believe that your body's machinary is the result of thousands of years of natural selction???

If so, think about it. 100 years ago, could you eat blueberries everyday?, could you go pick a loaf of bread off a tree and make a sandwich? Are Blueberries good for you? Of course, but your body was not designed over the past two thousand years to eat them everyday.

Last question, because by your posts you genuinely seem concerned about your health. Where and what were you doing yesterday at 8 PM. In the exact same location what would your great grandfather, or his father or his father have been doing at 8 PM.

Take 12$ and get yourself a copy of "Lights Out: Sleep, sugar and survival" from amazon.

read it and if you think its a bunch of shit, e-mail me and i'll buy it back from you.

Gotta crash



I have always shyed away from ALC in particular. This link explains my concern:


"The initial excitement about ALC/alpha lipoic acid (ALA) supplementation began when a team of researchers in California fed elderly rats both nutrients for a period of seven weeks and then compared them with young rats(1).

They were testing the theory that mitochondrial decline is caused by free radical damage (see panel opposite). There was already evidence that supplementation with acetyl L-carnitine (ALC) could reverse the age-related decline in mitochondrial activity in rats, increase fatty acid oxidation and boost general metabolic activity(2).

However the down side to this increased mitochondrial function was that more oxidative damage occurred(3), so the researchers decided to add the powerful mitochondrial antioxidant alpha lipoic acid (ALA) to the mix to see if they could get the best of both worlds: increased mitochondrial energy output, with reduced mitochondrial damage.

This two-pronged ?punch? to ageing cells seemed to work, with the two supplements together producing better results than either one alone. After a month on the supplements, elderly (24-month-old) and lethargic rats had more energy and did better on memory tests, while their mitochondria worked better.

The decline in overall activity typical of aged rats was reversed to the level of young-to-middle-aged adult rats, aged 7-10 months. The researchers likened this result to a group of 80-year-old humans throwing away their walking sticks and starting to act 35 years younger! "

The bottom line is that ALC increases oxidative damage and that ALA is required to protect this damage. Of course, why wouldn't one take ALA is one take away from this.

Let me ask this question: this combo has made rats feel and act like half their age, but I don't think the human results have been nearly as successful or, let's face it, it would be the new fountain of youth, right?

But I'm really bring all this up in the hopes that you'll be able to rebut what I'm saying...


30 mg Pycnogenol
100 mg Grape Seed Extract
250 mcg Selenium
30 mg Zinc (a not-so-hot form)
1.5 g EsterC
GNC MegaMan - whoa! - Multivitamin

I eat a lot of veges and would like to add fruit. But the fruit here is SO pathetic. Both the organic and regular supermarkets almost always have fruit that it is either mushy and bad or not ripe. I just got to the point where I refuse to buy it...


Cooked tomatoes yield significantly more absorbable lycopene. Or so I have read...


You know what I've had the hardest time accepting from Perricone, Sears, etc.? The idea that arachidonic acid is the Great Satan of the dietary world? I'm not saying they're not right, but I just find it hard to believe that beef, which is high in arachidonic acid, is really responsible for that much nastiness. And yet another reason that I don't want to believe it is that beef has a perfect PUFA/SFA ratio: 0.5. That'll tweak your T up nicely, thank you...

But, on the other hand, I've got to admit that I can't think of any society or culture that eats a lot of beef that is the model of health. In fact, quite the opposite...


Question for you: I went to Amazon and found two books with that title. One by Himmelman and the other by Wiley and Formby. Which one are you talking about? It sounds quite intriguing (even though I believe only in microevolution, i.e. the radition of the mammals, etc.)


I actually eat a lot of meat. Maybe not as much as a good T-man should but quite a bit. I also know they say that grains as a staple is a relatively new concept for mankind.

But I want to go to the blueberries comment. Blueberries have good clinical evidence now from what I've read and the other fruits and veges with high antioxidant levels have great results as well.

While I agree that antioxidants are NOT a panacea as was originally hoped. They do NOT increase max life span, etc. In fact, what made me a believer was the drastic improvement that I noticed in my skin after taking oral antioxidants (as well as the boost in my immunity). I would take them just for those reasons alone.

Besides, don't you think realistically that Cro-Magnon himself probably at a lot of the local fruits and veges in the area? I doubt he sat around all the time eating venison and fish...


Not really a hole, but check out



Whisper 9999

Wiley and Formby.

I'm not talking about Cro-magium man, although he fits the bill. I'm talking about as little as two or three generations back, let alone 10-20 generations. I live in NC, a fairly middle climate. Its January 200 years ago, what am i eating???? Blueberries, and broccoli??? My current machinary was designed to survive and flourish under the conditions of my forefathers. I am designed to eat fruit in late summer when it would have been available.(and pig out on it as well. To store it as fat so i could survive the winter). Now in its January i am eating meat, fish, a few greens and roots. My heart was designed to run on fat and protein for at least 4-6 months, not carbohydrates. There are no "essential carbohydrates" but there are "essential" fats and proteins.

Essential meaning your body needs it to survive and can't make it from anything else. There are no "esential carbohydrates". Period. In the extreme you can live on nothing but fat and protein (see Eskimo's, see no heart disease). Try surviving on just carbohydrates and your story will be short. O.K. so now you say well what about folks living in the tropics? I call bullshit. It the same thing. Their supply of fruits and vegatables go through seasons as well.

See the work by Harvard antropologist Cheryl Knott who studies orangutans in Borneo (i.e. about dead on the equator)extensively. In studing their reproductive habits she found that they mate primarily when their insulin levels are high (i.e. meaning when fruit was abundant. She collected and measured their urine)they did not mate when their insulin levels were low. This was when their food supply was low, plants flowering but not yet bearing fruit. During this time their urine was actually full of ketones, meaning they were surviving on fat and protein. Eating fruits and veggies in excess 12 months a year is not normal. Your taking more than your share. Nature hates that.

Last suggestion,

go get yourself a .243 or .270 or 30.06 and shoot yourself a bambi or two (depending on your state's law)

Think about it, would you rather eat the meat from an animal that exercises every day, eats a wide variety of wild greens and has well developed senses.


would you rather eat an animal that gets less exercise in its lifetime than a resthome resident gets in a weekend. And is forcefeed food it was not designed to eat and survive on by nature. And lets not even start on synthetic hormones.


also try "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" by Weston A. Price. This litle gem was written in the 40's when Adkins was still i diapers. Fasinating look at how as little a one generation on processed carbs can f$%* you up. This guy was selling nothing just making observations. Should be in your local library, PC or not.


I can't argue with anything you said. I had never really thought about it in depth, but of course most of human history was probably very similar to what you described. Certainly man had to be able to live on protein and fat for extended periods of time w/o significantly adverse effects.

But here's where my mind keeps going: what is optimum diet? In other words, maybe my uncle's uncle's uncle's uncle's uncle went through long periods every year with few veges or fruit. And no doubt he survived just fine. But did he age well? Did he, for example, have acute diverticulitis by his mid 30's?

What we're missing - and you can correct me if I'm wrong - are actual living examples of people who have lived on a protein/fat diet for extended periods. Yes, they may have done it for millennium but that doesn't help us because we don't know their medical history, life span, etc.

I agree that processed carbs are about as harmless as living on a farm a mile from Chernobyl. But if Atkins-esque diets are the answer, then where are the examples of people flourishing under it.

In other words, you have the semi-vegetarians who can point to the Mediterranean and Okinawan peoples as their examples. And some of the people such as Jack La Lanne (and even individucals on this site) have in my mind shown the effectiveness of immersing oneself in antioxidants, superfoods and exercise. But I just don't see the examples on the Atkins side.

For example, in the case of the Eskimos, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think they live into ripe old age. Yes, they're free of heart disease, but w/o their systems being bathed in antioxidants and phytochemicals, do they really live into vigorous old age?

Keep in mind that I'm just discussing what I don't understand. Let me know what you think...


Here's another q for you:

I'm a total ectomorph. I feel certain that if I did not eat carbs for several months, I'd be 5'11" and 120 pounds! Am I wrong?


Interesting - never even heard of it...



I am a bit pressed for time, the sun is goin down down and i need to be in bed. So i'll get back to you in more detail. Just a few quick thoughts. Adkins was on the right track but very flawed.

Carbs are not all bad. But carbs all the time are. We are not made that way. There are essential fats and essential amino acids (protein). Thats the way we are made.

Of course the last arguement is "well how come we live longer today that folks did 100 years ago."

Use some common sense. For those of us blessed to live in America, our lives are so godamned soft compared to most of the rest of the world. Or to folks living 100 years ago its SILLY. Do you think a guy workin out for an hour, 4 times a week compares to the physical demands of a trapper 200 years ago.

Or a farmer without a tractor or power tools, or god have mercy, a slave clearly land for tobacco here in NC with nothin but some axes, and cousins to pull the plows????????

Its a stupid arguement.

Number 2, antibiotics (i.e. see last two generations only), these work (as compared to cancer treatment) because they target a. separate a species,.... bacteria.

Cancer, heart disease and diabetes are not separate species, they are the result our abuse of our natural machinery. Don't you find it strange that the only animals on earth that suffer from cancer are humans.......and the animals we feed and over expose to light.....DOGS and CATS???

Number 3, surgery to repair wounds. The folks 200 years ago, who's lives were a struggle that most of us can't comprehend didn't have the surgery skills we now have at our disposal.

With regards to not being able to reduce your carbs. If you really want to get scientific do some research on:

advanced glycation end products

diabetics age prematurely because sugar driven damage acquires breakneck speed, raising their levels of advanced glycation end products to those of elderly people.

What are advanced glycation end products??? They're tight molecular bonds that form between sugar and your body's protein frame. Its what you see as dark pigment in the teeth and skin of old folks (age spots).

These aren't really a problem, except for lookin bad. But when they form with long lived protein collagen the result is thickened arteries, stiff joints, feeble muscles and failed organs. Thats not good. Those are your precious carbs at work

There are no essential carbohydrates.

go to the library and read

Lights Out


Nutrition and Physical Degeneration.



First of all, I agree in principle with what you're saying and I've heard of the glycation issue even from reading a guy like Perricone. But my point is simply that the phytochemicals and antioxidants in foods that have carbs are just as "life giving" as fish oil and a strong SFA/PUFA ratio. But, again, I completely agree that overdoing carbs esp. with a high glycemic index will kill you.

I'm just saying that my gut feel is that a life with 25/25/50 with all the phytochemicals and antioxidants is more healthy long term than a 30/0/70 diet with little of either. But, of course, I can't prove that as the Atkins-esque diets haven't been tried for decades by that many people.

But I"m very interested in the topic. Any more info or thoughts would be much appreciated...



i'm sorry i'm not making myself clear. I do not advocate Adkkins,just some of his basic principles. And i in no way advocate a 30/0/70 diet, or any diet that has a 0 in the carb slot, although in extreme circumstances this is possible. If that was natural we would not have insulin, which is a vital survival hormone. Without insulin we would not be here. What i'm advocating in a nut shell is seasonal consumption of carbs. This does not imply stetches where you consume NO carbs, simply stetches where they are reduced, like in nature. Why?

See heart disease, cancer, diabetes. Now, find these conditons in any other animal in nature that eats seasonal.