T Nation

Endgame for Israel


#1

Reflecting on Sharon's tactic of unilateral withdrawal, I've wondered at the value of taking this approach even further.

There are so many people who will always hate Israel and seek its destruction, no matter what concessions are offered. But there are also many who could be swayed to Israel's side if certain issues were addressed. The right of Palestinian return is an obvious nonstarter, so lets not even go there. What about the demand for elimination of all Israeli settlements that exist outside the pre-1967 borders? How many Israelis would such a relocation involve? Would this even be possible? If possible, would it be worth doing?

Also, if any of you can send me any sites where I may research these questions further, I would appreciate it! Thanks much.


#2

OK, here goes. This conflict is not just about rights and shit. It's about the Isrealis being somewhere where the rest of the Arab world thinks they should not be. They don't want to live in peace with the Israelis. They want to live in peace without the Israelis. If everyone could just lay down their arms and live together in harmony, that would not be good enough for the Arabs. They want the Israelis outta there; period. RLTW

rangertab75


#3

Bluedreamer...here's a weblink to a site that attempts to give a balanced view:

http://www.mideastweb.org/index.html

It's not perfect, and some of the material there should be viewed skeptically, but then again, so should everything! It definitely gives you the basic info that you seem to want.

As for the question of removing over 200,000 Jews from homes in their ancestral homeland, including their Holy City (Jerusalem), I'd say it's no less of a non-starter than the question of allowing the so-called "right of return" to take place. This may seem like an easy thing for an observer, but the implications are enormous for those living there.

Israel has shown a willingness to be reasonable and change long-held views. It has also given up major ground in it's policy on end-of-conflict theory (accepting the 2-state solution as the ultimate end of negotiations, for example...and they did this as a society, not as the dictate of this or that ruler, like Arabs do). It's time for the Arabs to reciprocate, thus allowing the damn war to end!


#4

Just an aside...

I'm amazed at how easily bias can creep into our thinking. It's occurred to me that, as a Jew , I'm so sensitive to remarks about Israel and it's policies in the Middle East...but as an American, I could care less what the world (or anyone, for that matter) thinks about what we're doing in Iraq or anywhere else.

I guess that as an American, I sense the strength of our position in the world, and as a Jew, I sense Israel's weaker standing in the world...and that I feel obliged to somehow defend it against the allegations.

Okay, I'm finished...


#5

Time to place your bets!

Mine:

In 2054, the exact same shitty will still be taking place and nothing will be solved!

(Sorry, decades of fighting just can`t be wrong!)


#6

Both sides have already said that its hopeless. Nothing will solve the problems. Its really sad, but tit for tat violence isn't going to solve any problems either.


#7

Whatever Israel does, it will not matter unless the Arabs get some secular leaders that aren't on the take. Otherwise, conditions will always be shitty, and the poor with blame it on the Jews (with a little encouragement from your local Hamas dealer, naturally).


#8

Daisy Cutter.


#9

Israel isn't unilaterally withdrawing, they are only taking down the settlements they can't afford to protect anyway. Never trust anything Sharon does, ever, he is an evil butcher. He was one of the original Middle East terrorists.


#10

You can't go around killing millions of people... this will never end through massive violence.

However, you can educate them. If you can't, educate the children and let the parents die of old age.

Until you see the children in the region being raised for purposes other than martyrdom, the situation will almost certainly not change.

This is true for Isreal, the Middle East, the whole pile of stinking shit over there that we have to deal with.


#11

Surely Israel could just put some shit in the Palestinian water supply to make them all a bunch of impodent bastards. One more generation to blow themselves up, and then Israel is home free.


#12

doogie

I think what you are talking about is called gene warfare (i.e put something in the air or water and ONLY effect certain groups).

You Neo-Con types are real charmers!


#13

Interesting responses (and, of course, a few idiotic ones too).

It's still surprises me how many seemingly thoughtful people conclude that both sides of this conflict are equally to blame. I suppose it's just a sign of superficiality, and not everyone is inclined to expend the effort to look a bit deeper. I maintain that for those who have the eyes to see and the ears to hear, it's flippin' obvious what's going on over there.

Anyhow... is the land granted to Israel by the UN in 1948 insufficient to provide for it's growing population? In other words, is there a practical necessity for establishing and/or expanding Israeli settlements on lands granted to a Palestinian state by the UN?

I understand that there are religious, cultural, and political reasons for the settlements as well; I'm curious if there are practical reasons as well, such as to relieve overcrowding. If not, then I'm starting to suspect that it is tactically unwise for Israel to expand settlement activity -- the true cost is too great. Any thoughts?


#14

You can't go around killing millions of people... this will never end through massive violence.

However, you can educate them. If you can't, educate the children and let the parents die of old age.

Until you see the children in the region being raised for purposes other than martyrdom, the situation will almost certainly not change.

This is true for Isreal, the Middle East, the whole pile of stinking shit over there that we have to deal with.

Thats true. And youre too gentle.

What I am gonna say is going to piss tons of people off, but they have a problem called RELIGION.

I don't want to start a flame-war, but the big problem is that:

1) You're force fed to accept, or brainwashed, to accept religion from a very young age, when you are suggestible and will accept anything your parents and environment will dictate. Thinking otherwise would mean dad, mom, peer and widespread social pressure, maybe ostracism. So good luck escaping that loop.

2) When was the last time someone rationally and sanely came to you and said: Sonny boy, I know you have various questions about life. Among the many schools of thought to answer these questions, there is science, religion and other alternatives. Here`s a summary of all options. Take your time. Think it out. Consult the Internet. Take what best fits you in your life at the stage you are.

Yeah, I know some schools can teach you that options exist, but we`re talking high school or higher, when brainwashing has already taken place and you're still too vulnerable to social pressure and still haven't had that many major life experiences or a fully developed comparative judgment.

And that's taking for granted you don't live in a daily warfare environment like in the Middle East.

BOTTOM LINE:
Established Culture +
Uneducated Crowd Mentality +
Social Intimidation +
Survival Issues

=
Very Doubfult Chances of Willingness to Change +
They`re fucked for the next centuries +
Forget about it you have no chances of changing anything to that Cancer-zone.

(I don't mention 'Nuking the whole regions' because now you'll be Hitler II or Satan and some new past-oriented survivor nation will start brainwashing the new blood with religious fanatism. It's the easiest and most predictible way in any new nation searching for an identity.)


#15

As soon as the fence is finished the problem should be solved.

Israel can be supplied from the sea.

Gaza from Egypt.

The West Bank from Jordan.

Maybe a transport corridor around Aquaba? Or maybe just a ferry?

The Arabs are of little threat to the Israelis in terms of conventional warfare. A sturdy wall would stop any non-conventional threats.

If the Jews and Arabs are physically separated it makes it had for them to kill each other.

If Israel wants to keeps parts of the West Bank, fine. If they get the fence built it will be a solution. Depending one where it is built it might be fair or unfair to certain groups but this is a minor matter.


#16

Vroom -

It's kinda hard to do that when Palestinian childern are recruited for their cause in fucking school. If they wanna die, that's fine. I'll make every one of them a damn martyr. RLTW

rangertab75


#17

Yeah, the Chinese built a big ass wall way back when. Why can't we built a stupid wall today?


#18

The Romans did much the same (e.g. Hadrians Wall between Pictland and Roman Britian).

A more modern day example of physical division leading to an uneasy peace would be between Turkisk (Northern) and Greek (Southern) Cyprus.


#19

Bluedreamer writes:
"I'm curious if there are practical reasons as well, such as to relieve overcrowding. If not, then I'm starting to suspect that it is tactically unwise for Israel to expand settlement activity -- the true cost is too great. Any thoughts?"

The NECESSITY of the major West Bank settlements is tactical. If there were no settlers there, the military itself would have to create large-scale bases where the settlements are in order to preserve the existence of the entire country. The borders of 1948 left Israel in a position that was extremely vulnerable, from rocket fire (and not modern rockets either) and invasion. If TREMENDOUS good fortune wasn't on the side of the Israelis, 1967 would have been the end of the country.

Bluey,
To add to your list, Saudi Arabia is also building a wall betweeen itself and Yemen to keep out terrorists.


#20

The Wall...the settlements...the UN. Ugghhh.

The Wall
I don't think that the wall will itself protect Israel...it will make it easier to track and stop terorrists from using the current routes that exist to get into Israel, but they'll find another way in to do their evil, even if in smaller doses...and less frequently! The wall will help keep each of the two sides apart, which is a very good thing. Let's face it, they hate each other big time, and seperation (at least, as much of it as possible) will work now that Oslo succeeded in making each side think that peace is a pipe dream. Who knows, if Israel wipes out enough of Hamas and the others, then maybe Palestinians will have the opportunity to actual decide on forming a new national position that may halp achieve peace at some point.

Settlements
...they serve all sorts of reasons, depending on which one you're taking about. Some are defensive, others religious, some ideological, and still others practical. But let's face it, all they deprive Arabs of is the fantasy that the land will be Jew-free one day. Further, before Israel conquered the West Bank (liberated in Jewish historical terms), Arabs referred to Tel-Aviv and other Israeli cities as settlements too...meaning that settlements are not the cause of Arab hostility, but rather Jewish indepedence is! So I think the notion that withdrawing from the settlements is BS...it's just a tactic used by anti-Israel folks to chip away at it's defensive shield.

The UN
The UN is a totally impotent, biased and corrupt organization. It is a farce, as well as a failure. It gives dictatorships the same vote as Democracies in the General Assembly, and it grants Democracies the role of Dictator in the Security Council. How fucked up is that?

Two words for the UN: Bugger Off!

As for how it comes into the larger picture, it's simple. The UN has helped keep this conflict alive by granting legitimacy to the terorists and dictators, thus allowing them to have an open forum to vent their Jew-hating bullshit. Israel, in turn, is all but forced to completely ignore the UN...because it would be insane to show it any respect considering the biased "resolutions" that come forth from that international organization of idiots.