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Elite PL Looking to Jump to World Class


#1

Hey guys, just looking for some advice/critique of my plan. I'm currently a natural elite level powerlifter looking to make the jump to world class. I'm very, very close but progress is hard for me to come by these days. I compete at 165lbs so my goal is to gain as much strength as possible while adding as little body weight as possible. I usually walk around at about 175 and cut water to make weight. If the gear brings my body weight up too high, I can diet for a few weeks before competition if need be.

For my first cycle I'm planning:
Week 1-12: Test E 500mg/wk
Week 6-12: Var 40mg/day
Week 1-15: Adex .25mg EOD
Week 15-20: Nolva 20mg/day (6 weeks total)

Week 12 will coincide with a competition. Let me know if you guys have any thoughts or suggestions. I really appreciate it.


#2

First off, congrats on hitting elite numbers naturally. I wasn’t able to hit them without gear, so I consider that to be quite impressive.

How tall are you? If you’re looking to hit world class numbers as a 165, you pretty much have to be 5’5 or shorter. I’m sure you’re aware of this, but it might be worth considering jumping to 181 (eventually, at least), as it will become increasingly more difficult to maintain such a low bodyweight while using steroids. And I would imagine the strength gains that can be made moving up a class would more than justify the weight gain. Obviously you know your body better than I do, but something to consider.

Var is a great compound. It should serve you well with your goals, and obviously testosterone will make you stronger. Given your goals, I would probably recommend starting test at 750, but then again, it certainly doesn’t hurt to start lower.

Here’s another option I would consider, if you’re not opposed to running orals longer. You could run the Var as prescribed for the first 6 weeks of the cycle, take 2-3 weeks off, and switch to 20mg Halo for the last 3-4 weeks. Halo is incredible for meet prep, especially if you’re on the high end of a weight class. I added significant strength without any bodyweight gains while on it. One of the best orals, if not THE best oral, for PL purposes.

Eventually, if you do run subsequent cycles, Tren is great for minimizing weight gain while maximizing strength gain. I’m not going to recommend it for your first cycle, but Test and Tren are ultimately the best compounds available for PL.

Your PCT is fine, but your adex may need fine tuning, depending on how often you’re injecting, and how you respond to adex. Some folks over respond to it and crash their E at the dose you’re starting at. If you’re injecting twice a week (which I think is a good idea), you could take .25mg each injection. I believe this is the best course.


#3

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
First off, congrats on hitting elite numbers naturally. I wasn’t able to hit them without gear, so I consider that to be quite impressive.

How tall are you? If you’re looking to hit world class numbers as a 165, you pretty much have to be 5’5 or shorter. I’m sure you’re aware of this, but it might be worth considering jumping to 181 (eventually, at least), as it will become increasingly more difficult to maintain such a low bodyweight while using steroids. And I would imagine the strength gains that can be made moving up a class would more than justify the weight gain. Obviously you know your body better than I do, but something to consider.

Var is a great compound. It should serve you well with your goals, and obviously testosterone will make you stronger. Given your goals, I would probably recommend starting test at 750, but then again, it certainly doesn’t hurt to start lower.

Here’s another option I would consider, if you’re not opposed to running orals longer. You could run the Var as prescribed for the first 6 weeks of the cycle, take 2-3 weeks off, and switch to 20mg Halo for the last 3-4 weeks. Halo is incredible for meet prep, especially if you’re on the high end of a weight class. I added significant strength without any bodyweight gains while on it. One of the best orals, if not THE best oral, for PL purposes.

Eventually, if you do run subsequent cycles, Tren is great for minimizing weight gain while maximizing strength gain. I’m not going to recommend it for your first cycle, but Test and Tren are ultimately the best compounds available for PL.

Your PCT is fine, but your adex may need fine tuning, depending on how often you’re injecting, and how you respond to adex. Some folks over respond to it and crash their E at the dose you’re starting at. If you’re injecting twice a week (which I think is a good idea), you could take .25mg each injection. I believe this is the best course.[/quote]

First off, thanks for the thorough response dude. I’m 5’6. I know I will inevitably have to move up a weight class soon (it’s becoming increasingly more difficult to keep my weight down and I am already somewhat lean), but I want to go out with a bang before I do. I believe I can undoubtedly get to top 3 all time and I have the discipline and knowledge to make weight even coming in somewhat heavy. The all time list is really the only thing I care about, so I have no qualms about moving up a class soon as I long as I believe I will reach the top there.

I don’t know too much about different orals, but I have access to var and I’ve heard it’s good for strength while keeping weight down, which is why I mentioned it. Halo refers to halotestin correct? I have seen you in particular mention epistane on here multiple times. I actually stocked up on 6 bottles of the stuff before the ban. What’s your opinion on that instead of the var? Do you think I’m better off running the oral (whichever I end up choosing) for the final 6 weeks of the cycle to peak for the meet? Or kickstarting with it?

I’ll be injecting twice a week and I have plenty of adex on hand. I can start with .5mg/week as you suggest. And the consensus on this board now seems to be that dragging the SERM out longer at a lower dosage is preferable, yes? I have enough to run it 40/40/20/20 or 20/20/20/20/20/20.


#4

Halo is halotestin, yes. It’s got a fairly short half-life, provides very noticeable aggression if used about an hour before training, and is useful when ‘mega-dosed’ on meet day to maintain strength and aggression all day. I will use it in every meet prep I do. It’s more liver toxic than many other compounds though, so should not be run for more than 4 weeks, IMO.

I like Epistane, because it’s ‘good enough’ for strength gains, and I paid much less for it than I would have to for things like Dbol or Var. I haven’t actually run Var, but it’s widely known as a great steroid as well. I know of a very reputable world record holding powerlifter who said he uses Var more days in the year than not.

If you can only do one, run your oral on the last half of the cycle (as you approach the meet) and consider using it throught the day on meet day.

You are correct about the SERM. You’ve obviously been paying attention to recent discussions. Yes, do 6 weeks at 20mg per day.


#5

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
Halo is halotestin, yes. It’s got a fairly short half-life, provides very noticeable aggression if used about an hour before training, and is useful when ‘mega-dosed’ on meet day to maintain strength and aggression all day. I will use it in every meet prep I do. It’s more liver toxic than many other compounds though, so should not be run for more than 4 weeks, IMO.

I like Epistane, because it’s ‘good enough’ for strength gains, and I paid much less for it than I would have to for things like Dbol or Var. I haven’t actually run Var, but it’s widely known as a great steroid as well. I know of a very reputable world record holding powerlifter who said he uses Var more days in the year than not.

If you can only do one, run your oral on the last half of the cycle (as you approach the meet) and consider using it throught the day on meet day.

You are correct about the SERM. You’ve obviously been paying attention to recent discussions. Yes, do 6 weeks at 20mg per day.[/quote]

So it sounds like you would recommend the halo as the first choice for an oral, followed by the var?

If I could only get my hands on one oral, would it make any sense to run it for on the front and the back end of the cycle? Or would that only be practical with different compounds?

Also, am I right to bridge the AI into PCT like that, and leave the one week overlap? Should I taper it off at all or can I just cut it out a week after I add the SERM?

Sorry for asking so many questions haha.


#6

On Halo… when I ran it, I hit gym PR’s of some sort nearly every single session over the course of about 3 weeks. That being said, I consider it to be something of an ace card. It elevated my blood pressure significantly, and that’s something I would only want to do for short periods of time, and rarely.

You certainly don’t need to change orals, but liver toxicity is something to consider with Halo. On my next run, I’m probably just gonna use Dbol for 12 weeks straight. I wouldn’t do this with Halo. I have no experience with kick starting a cycle with Halo, and I haven’t really heard of people doing it, so it’s not something I can confidently recommend. You mentioned you already have Epistane, so now might be a good time to use it.

Epistane could be run for the entire cycle at 40mg/day, and you could just add the Halo on top of it for the last 4 weeks. OR, if you want to be more conservative, just run the Epistane for, say, the first 5 weeks, come off for a few weeks, and run the Halo for the last 4 weeks. I really like having a kickstarter because I’m impatient, and I also want to get as much as I can out of the first 6-8 weeks of the cycle, but nothing is set in stone. I realize I’ve presented a lot of options at this point, lol.

Bridging the AI into the PCT is a good idea, just as you’ve described it. Tapering the AI at the end is a good idea, since there will be less test to aromatize in the last couple weeks, particularly the very last one.


#7

Please consider this: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/the_pct_serm_dosing_in_this_forum_is_wrong


#8

[quote]KSman wrote:
Please consider this: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/the_pct_serm_dosing_in_this_forum_is_wrong
[/quote]

So would you recommend something more like:

Weeks 15-20
Nolva: 20/20/20/20/10/10
Adex: .5mg/wk

Weeks 21-22: Adex .5mg/wk

Week 23: Adex .25mg/wk

Week 24: Adex .125mg/wk

In this case I would be running the arimidex for 24 straight weeks. Is that ok to do? I have more than enough on hand to do it that way, assuming I don’t have to increase the dosage much above .5mg/week.


#9

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
On Halo… when I ran it, I hit gym PR’s of some sort nearly every single session over the course of about 3 weeks. That being said, I consider it to be something of an ace card. It elevated my blood pressure significantly, and that’s something I would only want to do for short periods of time, and rarely.

You certainly don’t need to change orals, but liver toxicity is something to consider with Halo. On my next run, I’m probably just gonna use Dbol for 12 weeks straight. I wouldn’t do this with Halo. I have no experience with kick starting a cycle with Halo, and I haven’t really heard of people doing it, so it’s not something I can confidently recommend. You mentioned you already have Epistane, so now might be a good time to use it.

Epistane could be run for the entire cycle at 40mg/day, and you could just add the Halo on top of it for the last 4 weeks. OR, if you want to be more conservative, just run the Epistane for, say, the first 5 weeks, come off for a few weeks, and run the Halo for the last 4 weeks. I really like having a kickstarter because I’m impatient, and I also want to get as much as I can out of the first 6-8 weeks of the cycle, but nothing is set in stone. I realize I’ve presented a lot of options at this point, lol.

Bridging the AI into the PCT is a good idea, just as you’ve described it. Tapering the AI at the end is a good idea, since there will be less test to aromatize in the last couple weeks, particularly the very last one.[/quote]

Is it safe to run the epistane for 12 consecutive weeks?
You’ve tempted me with the halo, but I don’t know if I’ll be able to get my hands on any. Would it make any sense to kickstart with the epi for 4-5 weeks and then finish with the var for 4-5 weeks? Or are you thinking that’s only really plausible with the halo.


#10

[quote]Supernova205 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
On Halo… when I ran it, I hit gym PR’s of some sort nearly every single session over the course of about 3 weeks. That being said, I consider it to be something of an ace card. It elevated my blood pressure significantly, and that’s something I would only want to do for short periods of time, and rarely.

You certainly don’t need to change orals, but liver toxicity is something to consider with Halo. On my next run, I’m probably just gonna use Dbol for 12 weeks straight. I wouldn’t do this with Halo. I have no experience with kick starting a cycle with Halo, and I haven’t really heard of people doing it, so it’s not something I can confidently recommend. You mentioned you already have Epistane, so now might be a good time to use it.

Epistane could be run for the entire cycle at 40mg/day, and you could just add the Halo on top of it for the last 4 weeks. OR, if you want to be more conservative, just run the Epistane for, say, the first 5 weeks, come off for a few weeks, and run the Halo for the last 4 weeks. I really like having a kickstarter because I’m impatient, and I also want to get as much as I can out of the first 6-8 weeks of the cycle, but nothing is set in stone. I realize I’ve presented a lot of options at this point, lol.

Bridging the AI into the PCT is a good idea, just as you’ve described it. Tapering the AI at the end is a good idea, since there will be less test to aromatize in the last couple weeks, particularly the very last one.[/quote]

Is it safe to run the epistane for 12 consecutive weeks?
You’ve tempted me with the halo, but I don’t know if I’ll be able to get my hands on any. Would it make any sense to kickstart with the epi for 4-5 weeks and then finish with the var for 4-5 weeks? Or are you thinking that’s only really plausible with the halo.[/quote]

No, what you’re suggesting makes plenty of sense. The truth is you’ll make great gains no matter how you approach it, since it’s your first cycle. Pretty much anything is going to work. Throw in the Halo next time or something. My first cycle was a Dbol kickstarter for 4 weeks, Test for 12 weeks, and Epistane for the last 4 weeks. I liked what Epistane did for body composition at the end, and I believe Var should be similar, if not more effective. In any event, I would want to have orals in me at the time of the meet.


#11

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

No, what you’re suggesting makes plenty of sense. The truth is you’ll make great gains no matter how you approach it, since it’s your first cycle. Pretty much anything is going to work. Throw in the Halo next time or something. My first cycle was a Dbol kickstarter for 4 weeks, Test for 12 weeks, and Epistane for the last 4 weeks. I liked what Epistane did for body composition at the end, and I believe Var should be similar, if not more effective. In any event, I would want to have orals in me at the time of the meet.[/quote]

Sounds good. Thanks for the help dude. I’m thinking I’ll kick it off with the epi for 4 weeks and finish with the var for 4. If I can’t get the var in time I’ll just run the epi on both ends.


#12

[quote]Supernova205 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

No, what you’re suggesting makes plenty of sense. The truth is you’ll make great gains no matter how you approach it, since it’s your first cycle. Pretty much anything is going to work. Throw in the Halo next time or something. My first cycle was a Dbol kickstarter for 4 weeks, Test for 12 weeks, and Epistane for the last 4 weeks. I liked what Epistane did for body composition at the end, and I believe Var should be similar, if not more effective. In any event, I would want to have orals in me at the time of the meet.[/quote]

Sounds good. Thanks for the help dude. I’m thinking I’ll kick it off with the epi for 4 weeks and finish with the var for 4. If I can’t get the var in time I’ll just run the epi on both ends.[/quote]

Good plan. Keep us posted on your progress. Guys at your level don’t turn up all the time, so I’d very much like to see how this works out for you.


#13

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

Good plan. Keep us posted on your progress. Guys at your level don’t turn up all the time, so I’d very much like to see how this works out for you.[/quote]

Will do man. Still got a few more weeks before I get started though.


#14

[quote]Supernova205 wrote:

[quote]KSman wrote:
Please consider this: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/the_pct_serm_dosing_in_this_forum_is_wrong
[/quote]

So would you recommend something more like:

Weeks 15-20
Nolva: 20/20/20/20/10/10
Adex: .5mg/wk

Weeks 21-22: Adex .5mg/wk

Week 23: Adex .25mg/wk

Week 24: Adex .125mg/wk

In this case I would be running the arimidex for 24 straight weeks. Is that ok to do? I have more than enough on hand to do it that way, assuming I don’t have to increase the dosage much above .5mg/week.[/quote]

Can I get a bump on this? I had always read that the AI should be discontinued before the SERM, but this thread makes it sound like the AI should be run on cycle, during PCT, and then tapered down for a few weeks post PCT after the SERM has been discontinued. It seems like a long time to continually run the AI so I’m just looking for some clarification.


#15

I read a post earlier in the week expressing similar concerns with long term use of arimidex and the effect it may have on lipids.

I think the response KSman gave was that arimidex would not negatively effect lipids, unless estrogen became too low.


#16

[quote]pex86 wrote:
I read a post earlier in the week expressing similar concerns with long term use of arimidex and the effect it may have on lipids.

I think the response KSman gave was that arimidex would not negatively effect lipids, unless estrogen became too low.[/quote]

Correct. Adex does not impact lipids directly, only if you crash your E2. I’ve been on Adex for over a year and my HDL is still 55+.


#17

[quote]Igs wrote:

[quote]pex86 wrote:
I read a post earlier in the week expressing similar concerns with long term use of arimidex and the effect it may have on lipids.

I think the response KSman gave was that arimidex would not negatively effect lipids, unless estrogen became too low.[/quote]

Correct. Adex does not impact lipids directly, only if you crash your E2. I’ve been on Adex for over a year and my HDL is still 55+.[/quote]

Sounds good. So then is the current consensus here to run your AI past your SERM during PCT and then taper it off after a few weeks?


#18

[quote]Supernova205 wrote:

[quote]Igs wrote:

[quote]pex86 wrote:
I read a post earlier in the week expressing similar concerns with long term use of arimidex and the effect it may have on lipids.

I think the response KSman gave was that arimidex would not negatively effect lipids, unless estrogen became too low.[/quote]

Correct. Adex does not impact lipids directly, only if you crash your E2. I’ve been on Adex for over a year and my HDL is still 55+.[/quote]

Sounds good. So then is the current consensus here to run your AI past your SERM during PCT and then taper it off after a few weeks?
[/quote]

It makes sense to, yes. I would even run LOW dose AI indefinitely to keep your HPTA “bolstered” between cycles. The trick is to keep E2 in lower but acceptable healthy range. The feedback will up the production of LH/FSH, which is what you want.


#19

So I have about a month left on my cycle. I managed to get hold of the anavar and I plan to run it at 50mg for the first couple weeks and bump it to 75 for the last couple as I peak for the meet. I still have all that epistane lying around. So my question is would adding say 30-45mg of epistane with the anavar/test for the last 4 weeks have any additional benefit in terms of peaking my strength for the competition? Or would the epistane just be adding additional stress to my liver for no extra benefit?

I know it’s not really recommended to stack two orals, but it would be pretty short duration. I just don’t know if those 2 compounds would work against each other or not.

Thanks guys


#20

Only way to say for sure is by getting bloodwork, as far as liver stress is concerned. If bloodwork looks good right now, I’d feel comfortable adding in a second oral for a short period.

I’m currently running epistane at 50mg and dbol at 50mg per day leading up to a strongman show at the end of this month. You’ll definitely see additional strength benefits from stacking the 2. I love how these 2 drugs work together. I don’t know about anavar and epistane, but I imagine it would be good as well.

How has the cycle treated you so far? Have your numbers increased?