T Nation

Election Challenge 2004

I just thought I start a thread so we can all keep up with the ZEB-RSU brewhaha that is in the offing.

It is growing tiresome trying to follow you two around the polital forum and keep up with the status of Zeb’s challenge to RSU.

If anyone wants to make wagers, one can buy futures contracts at both of these sites:

http://www.biz.uiowa.edu/iem

Those who think Kerry will win should place orders now, as with the current prices reflecting a Bush win, betting on a Kerry win would produce “easy money.”

rainjack:

I want to thank you for starting this thread. I also want to apologize to the other forum members who have had to trudge through my “challenge” posts on other threads.

I normally would not go out of my way, as I have on this issue, to call one person out. However, other than perhaps one other person on this thread (who posts only occasionally) I have not seen more hateful attacking posts than what RSU has been writing. Hence, the reason for my challenge and the follow through posts regarding that challenge.

My challenge is very clear: If Kerry wins then I will leave the political forum for three months. If Bush wins RSU leaves the forum for three months. No gimmicks, and no small print! As yet RSU has ducked the challenge calling it “silly.”

I don’t think that it’s silly and heres why. RSU personally attacks our President and all of those individuals who side with him. He thinks nothing of belittling people whenever he feels the urge. I ignored it at first and then decided to have a little fun with it. If someone feels so strongly then he ought to be able to back it up with more than just words. Thus far RSU has failed to step up to the plate.

In the “old days” prior to the Internet and the message board format, people were more reticent about harshly attacking someone personally for their political beliefs. Why? because they were face to face! When political discussions did become heated many times they would end in a bet (or worse), or as I have termed it a challenge. Men do bet on the outcome of all sorts of things. I didn’t think it out of step to challenge him to bet with me on this election.

Unfortunately, the Internet generation of which RSU is a part have lost that certain T-Man style of settling differences. RSU seems quite comfortable (too much so) sitting behind his keyboard and spewing his hateful agenda. “It’s my right” he has cried on at least one occasion. This is my way of calling him on it, and I intend to continue until the election has come and gone, or until he takes me up on my challenge.

I have a great deal of respect for those who are in RSU’s age group. If you look on other threads you will see me at least attempting to assist them when they have questions regarding health and or weight training (have you been at all helpful to anyone since you joined T-Nation RSU? Do you even lift weights?). I have also learned quite a bit from those in their 20’s. As I have stated on prior occasions, I have spoken with some very sharp twenty somethings! These guys (and girls) not only show intelligence, but compassion and respect for their fellow man.

Unfortunately, while RSU is an intelligent twenty something, it is difficult to get around his over blown, hate filled, ego driven posts to appreciate his point. Furthermore, he has shown no respect or compassion for any view point that differs from his own. In fact, he has personally attacked virtually every member on the board who dares to disagree with him!

For these reasons (and I thought it would be a lot of fun, and I was right) I decided to challenge him to this bet. It is my fondest hope that he take me up on it so that he can appreciate that words, at least some words, some of the time, have repercussions. Then perhaps he may not be so emboldened to ridicule, attack and degrade others who disagree with him.

(Okay RSU, your turn to answer my post on this thread. Try not to use your usual sarcasm and personal attacks. Try to be sincere and act like a “stand up guy” for once.)

I hope you’re not offended by me starting this thread.

Personally, I think your back-and-forth with RSU is a hoot.

The arguements between you two have been entertaining. What if nader wins?

Hey…message boards like this should be entertaining and educational, not mean spirited.

Let’s see, If Nader wins we both leave for three months!

If Nader wins, I’ll leave the country for four years - not because I lost a bet, but because I would have to just get out.

Now where is that RSU? He must be cramming tonight…for a final that is.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
rainjack:

I want to thank you for starting this thread.[/quote]
I’d like to thank you too, as I have suggested before that ZEB do this since he HAS been “chasing me around” and barely typing anything that doesn’t go back to his ‘ultimate challenge.’ He didn’t do it though.[quote] I also want to apologize to the other forum members who have had to trudge through my “challenge” posts on other threads.[/quote]
I have urged ZEB to move along for the forum’s sake, but he’s steadfast.

[quote]
I normally would not go out of my way, as I have on this issue, to call one person out. However, other than perhaps one other person on this thread (who posts only occasionally) I have not seen more hateful attacking posts than what RSU has been writing.[/quote]
I’m sick of this ZEB – you need to define “hateful” and provide just one example of unprovoked “hate” from me. I doubt you can provide one because I’m not a hateful person! Sarcastic? At times, yes. Disapproving of Bush? Most certainly. I can be both of these things without being “hateful.”

[quote]
Hence, the reason for my challenge and the follow through posts regarding that challenge.

My challenge is very clear: If Kerry wins then I will leave the political forum for three months. If Bush wins RSU leaves the forum for three months. No gimmicks, and no small print! As yet RSU has ducked the challenge calling it “silly.”

I don’t think that it’s silly and heres why. RSU personally attacks our President and all of those individuals who side with him.[/quote]
Can you explain further how I “personally attack the president”? I’m interested in what you mean by ‘personally.’

I “belittle” people when I think they make remarks that are particularly ignorant, obnoxious, or, in some cases, hypocritical.[quote]
I ignored it at first and then decided to have a little fun with it. If someone feels so strongly then he ought to be able to back it up with more than just words. Thus far RSU has failed to step up to the plate.[/quote]

Okay, time for some analysis of this ridiculous challenge. If there is one part of my response that you read and respond to, ZEB, please let it be this one…

  1. “If someone feels so strongly, they should be able to back it up…” okay…so what I feel so strongly about is this: I don’t want GWB to be our president for another 4 years. I would prefer John Kerry to win the presidency. This is true, I feel strongly about MY DESIRE. Yet, in your challenge, you are asking me to “back up” the claim that KERRY WILL WIN, which I have never made (if I have made it, it was never with the conviction of my desire for him to win).

It has always been YOU who has made the bold and specific predictions – I always thought that your predictions never said much about you aside from, well you can see that it’s going to be close and you can guess a range of numbers between 1 and 10.

  1. The other reason I object is that the outcome of the election bears no reflection on either of us. I am not interested in guessing who will win, which, in essence, is guessing who the majority of people, and thus states, will elect.

  2. The consequence of leaving the forum is also curious, and I wonder what it means, in truth.

[quote]
In the “old days” prior to the Internet and the message board format, people were more reticent about harshly attacking someone personally for their political beliefs. Why? because they were face to face! When political discussions did become heated many times they would end in a bet (or worse), or as I have termed it a challenge. Men do bet on the outcome of all sorts of things. I didn’t think it out of step to challenge him to bet with me on this election.[/quote]
Political discussions – I engage in them frequently, albeit with folks more reasonable than the likes of yourself – always end up heated. I have never come close to coming to blows with any of my “adversaries” nor do I think it is necessary or inevitable. Likewise, I have never made a bet with someone on the outcome of an election. I suppose it might be fun if it was simply an arbitrary bet, but viewing the outcome of the election as a reflection of one’s own convictions is assinine.

I’ll just ignore this constant twisting and prodding.

[quote]
I have a great deal of respect for those who are in RSU’s age group. If you look on other threads you will see me at least attempting to assist them when they have questions regarding health and or weight training (have you been at all helpful to anyone since you joined T-Nation RSU? [/quote] I’ve been around here for quite some time, and sure, I’ve offered my opinion (note: not my final word like you have) on various threads that I think have helped folks. My advice slowed, I think, as T-Mag’s quality advanced – because what can I offer that the many experts and gurus around here can’t? Nothing. My posts these days are nearly always in the political forum, however. [quote]Do you even lift weights?).[/quote] Certainly do – you’ve been preoccupied by this lately, taking jabs at my gym performance. What would you like to know about my gains/training history, measurements/best lifts, etc.? I’m perfectly candid.

As only you can judge.

[quote]
Unfortunately, while RSU is an intelligent twenty something, it is difficult to get around his over blown, hate filled, ego driven posts to appreciate his point.[/quote]Again, point 'em out!

[quote] Furthermore, he has shown no respect or compassion for any view point that differs from his own.[/quote]I’d disagree and would indeed turn this sentiment back toward you, my friend.

[quote] In fact, he has personally attacked virtually every member on the board who dares to disagree with him![/quote]LOL…while I may have had my scraps with many if not most of my opponents, it isn’t in virtue of our disagreement that these scraps occur. It can be summed up to our moods at the time, particular things said, general tonage, etc…it’s typically nothing that isn’t looked past, I don’t think.

[quote]
For these reasons (and I thought it would be a lot of fun, and I was right) I decided to challenge him to this bet. It is my fondest hope that he take me up on it so that he can appreciate that words, at least some words, some of the time, have repercussions. Then perhaps he may not be so emboldened to ridicule, attack and degrade others who disagree with him.[/quote]
Spare me the “lesson.” Read my reasons for not taking the bet and respond to that with some thought.

In the very sentence that you request I not attack you, you imply that I’m insincere and NOT a stand up guy – hypocrite.
In this post you’ve also called me hateful, and I CHALLENGE (word of the week) you to display one example of a hateful post.

BTW, I defended myself in this post and played very little offense as I don’t wish for this ridciulous banter to continue with ZEB. That said, I’ll never let ZEB continue to distort my positions and opinions and play his pseudo-profiling games with his higher-than-thou attitude.

Well…you read it folks! Lots of bluster. Lots of side stepping, but alas the kid still does not step up to the plate!

Let’s look at some of RSU’s latest gems. These are beauties!

“I belittle people when they make remarks that are particularly ignorant or obnoxious.” translation: “I belittle people whenever they disagree with me.” You know kid, some people think that belittling people is nasty.

“If I made a claim that Kerry would win it was never with a conviction for my desire for him to win.” That one sounds a little like “I voted for it before I voted against it.” Hey…you guys read the same play book!

“The consequence of leaving the forum is also curious and I wonder what it means in truth?” Just like a left winger, has to analyze something to death and then back down. Can’t you see Kerry doing the same thing as President?

RSU then goes on to tell us that he has had “heated debate” with others and it has “never come to blows.” Who said anything about fighting? Besides, the other twenty somethings whom you “debate” with are probably those of your own ilk. NOne of you would step up to the plate… No big deal.

“I do not wish for this ridiculous banter to continue with Zeb.” I know it’s much easier attacking the President and those who defend him. You don’t like it much when the situation has been turned on you!

Finally, RSU sums the entire matter up this way: “spare me the lesson.” I think that’s what your parents did kid, and it hasn’t helped you so far in life!

RSU, it took you some time to answer my original post as you have. It would only take you five words to end this. Here they are: “I accept your challenge Zeb.”

In lieu of stating the above I would like to make a new offer:

  1. Start showing respect for those whom you debate with. An occasional “good point” to your worthy adversaries would be helpful.

  2. Stop attacking people personally. Immature name calling brings down the entire forum.

  3. Accept the fact that at the age of 24 (or at any age for that matter) you have not cornered the market on the truth.

If you can follow through with the three items above, I suppose I will be man enough to let you off the hook.

Oh, and don’t forget to do your homework and be good to your classmates!

zebbie, I found the source of your confident predictions as to the winner. But they say “up to 15%”. Ahnold in '08?

Stallone’s predictions via ESP, extra-sensory pooches

By Roy Rivenburg, Times Staff Writer

The psychic dogs have projected a winner in this year’s presidential race.

Don’t laugh. In previous elections, the clairvoyant canines, who are owned by Jacqueline Stallone (Sylvester’s mom), have been uncannily accurate. In July 2000, they correctly predicted in a Los Angeles Times story that George W. Bush would defeat Al Gore by “a couple hundred votes.”

For their next act, in August 2003, the miniature pinschers said Arnold Schwarzenegger would take California’s recall race “by a major margin.”

Of course, they also predicted Kobe Bryant would go to prison. But never mind that. When it comes to political prognostications, the dogs have an impressive track record.

Using super canine mental powers, they “channel messages from the spirit world and telepathically send them to me,” Mama Stallone has said. She theorizes that her dogs’ unusual talent comes from sleeping on Islamic prayer rugs.

So, which candidate will win this November? Bush, by a margin of up to 15%, Stallone says.

But wait, there’s more. In 2008, Schwarzenegger will take advantage of a future constitutional amendment that allows foreign-born citizens to run for president. His opponent will be John Edwards, says Stallone, a veteran astrologer who also practices the art of “rumpology,” which is similar to palmistry but uses the imprint of a person’s derriere to foretell the future.

Alas, the dogs aren’t ready to call the 2008 election yet. Their crystal bowl is still a little hazy on that one, Stallone says.

But the pooches do say Iraq will be fine within two years and murder suspect Scott Peterson won’t be convicted of slaying his wife, Laci.

Hi Guys,

I have followed the challenge and its rebuttal for some time now. And I think it’s stupid. I’m often disappointed by the bad debate style many of the posters here display. And this is a good example - it’s often rough here, and I often don’t like it - but whatever your age, whatever your degree, however hateful you think the other is … grow up!

How boring would it be to “ban” someone from the forums: No one to cross verbal blades with, no one to look forward to have a debate with. Be honest, you’d miss each other.

Please get back to bashing each other on issues and stop trampling each other’s sandcastles.

Nuff said,
Makkun

Funny tme,

But this is a better source:

http://128.255.244.60/graphs/graph_Pres04_WTA.cfm

tme:

That’s a riot! Now I have to remember that if Bush wins by 15% which seems a bit unlikely right now, to give credit to Stallones dogs.

makkun:

well I know I would miss RSU for three months…no seriously. He’s like the son I’m glad I never had…ha

Where can you go to get this much entertainment for free?

[quote]ZEB wrote:
makkun:

well I know I would miss RSU for three months…no seriously. He’s like the son I’m glad I never had…ha

Where can you go to get this much entertainment for free?[/quote]

ZEB,

Glad you agree. Couldn’t survive the election and its aftermath with a key player on the reserve bench. :wink:

Makkun

Hey,

Old man river your challenge is asinine, give it a rest! I’m sure everyone is glad you hang out with so many smart twenty year olds!

RSU-

Keep on with the good work! Your absence for any reason would be sorely missed.

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Hey,

Old man river your challenge is asinine, give it a rest! I’m sure everyone is glad you hang out with so many smart twenty year olds!

RSU-

Keep on with the good work! Your absence for any reason would be sorely missed.[/quote]

Elk:

Why you young whipper snapper…Ha ha… RSU…I agree with Elk, your absence would be sorely missed, by some. Celebrated by others, and simply not noticed by most. Which by the way would be the same for me…Dang life is cruel…

RSU,

Come on!!! Kerry is fantastic!!!

Just accept the challenge.

It will make this election cycle more exciting for you and Zeb.

Anybody but Bush!!! That’s all that really matters!!! That’s the only thing you need to win the Presidency!!!

I love it!!!

JeffR