T Nation

Egypt and Gaza

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/01/25/gaza.egypt/index.html

Now why would the Egyptians be sealing off the border with Gaza? Do they think the Palestinians are butt-fucked crazy too? Perhaps, but they got to eat too. Apparently they are to busy building bombs, rockets and buying arms to set up a sustainable infrastructure. Perhaps, if they put a tiny bit more effort in to sustaining their own lives rather than taking Israeli lives they’d be in a better spot. Somebody has to help these people, since they won’t help themselves.

You know, it’s funny, they bitch, moan and bomb Israel, yet at the same time they stand at the border with their hands out waiting for the Israeli’s to put something in it. Irony at it’s finest, they want charity from the people they seek to destroy.

Funny that Egypt has a wall at their border and no one says squat, no one fires a rocket into their country, and Egyptians are fellow muslims who should probably look after their bretherin with shipments of aid, rather than shipments of weapons.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Funny that Egypt has a wall at their border and no one says squat, no one fires a rocket into their country, and Egyptians are fellow muslims who should probably look after their bretherin with shipments of aid, rather than shipments of weapons.[/quote]

Now, now. Egypt didn’t show up on Palestinian lands 60 years ago. The Egyptian army isn’t regularly harassing and torturing Palestinians. The Egyptian government isn’t building “settlements”. Etc…

The situation on both “borders” is not comparable. Your “bretherin” comment shows a complete lack of understanding of the issue.

[quote]lixy wrote:

Now, now. Egypt didn’t show up on Palestinian lands 60 years ago. The Egyptian army isn’t regularly harassing and torturing Palestinians. The Egyptian government isn’t building “settlements”. Etc…[/quote]

There were no “Palestinian lands” 60 years ago. It’s a cheap myth you need to complete your brainless ideology.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
lixy wrote:

Now, now. Egypt didn’t show up on Palestinian lands 60 years ago. The Egyptian army isn’t regularly harassing and torturing Palestinians. The Egyptian government isn’t building “settlements”. Etc…

There were no “Palestinian lands” 60 years ago. It’s a cheap myth you need to complete your brainless ideology. [/quote]

Technically, you’re absolutely right. But there were a people living on that land. You know, the parents and grandparents of the millions of Palestinian refugees today, were cultivating it.

But tell me, since you’re so vehemently opposed to labeling it Palestinian land, what would you call it? British land? Turkish land? What?

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
lixy wrote:

Now, now. Egypt didn’t show up on Palestinian lands 60 years ago. The Egyptian army isn’t regularly harassing and torturing Palestinians. The Egyptian government isn’t building “settlements”. Etc…

There were no “Palestinian lands” 60 years ago. It’s a cheap myth you need to complete your brainless ideology.
[/quote]

Yes, tb23, but so many want to rewrite history.

Gaza was granted in the 1947 partition to the Arab State that was to succeed the Mandate. After 1948, the Arab League, refusing to allow any of its members to recognize the partition, let alone the Arab State that never was, assigned to Egypt administrative control to Gaza, where it had parked its tanks. So, yes, Egypt did show up on others’ property, and subjugate it, refusing statehood or citizenship, let alone assimilation, to its inhabitants, for 19 years.
Arab apologists will never recognize the culpability of Arabs themselves in the isolation and politically determined subjugation of the Palestinians. And it continues today, vis-a-vis Egypt and Gaza and the West Bank, for only slightly different reasons, having to do with internal politics, and not Israel.

[quote]lixy wrote:

Technically, you’re absolutely right. But there were a people living on that land. You know, the parents and grandparents of the millions of Palestinian refugees today, were cultivating it.

But tell me, since you’re so vehemently opposed to labeling it Palestinian land, what would you call it? British land? Turkish land? What?[/quote]

Have a look at the good Doctor’s post - I’d only remind you about the phony “Palestinian crisis” that created a refugee movement with your precious Muslim states encouraging Muslims to flee the area (for no good reason) only to shut them out of the Muslim countries, thus manufacturing the “crisis” of not being able to return to the “homeland”.

It’s a filthy chapter in the sordid tale of how these people were abused by fellow Muslims - and the unclean hands belong to the exact Muslims states and factions now calling for some tenderness for the Palestinians. But you knew that.

You should be embarrassed, Lixy, but I am sure you won’t be - the plight of the Palestinians was created as pure pretext for you and those that share your ideology to attack Israel. Muslims don’t give a damn about the Palestinians, never have. The “Palestinian Cause” is nothing but a stalking horse for ridding the world of Israel - problem is, you keep trying to sell it, and we’ve all figured out its snake oil.

Hey Pat, perhaps if I lock you into an open prison, with no way out and no way to support yourself, you’ll grow a brain.

Very unlikely though.

The irony is that Darwin missed you.

Let us not forget the Jewish refugees pushed out of muslim/arab lands.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
lixy wrote:

Technically, you’re absolutely right. But there were a people living on that land. You know, the parents and grandparents of the millions of Palestinian refugees today, were cultivating it.

But tell me, since you’re so vehemently opposed to labeling it Palestinian land, what would you call it? British land? Turkish land? What?

Have a look at the good Doctor’s post - I’d only remind you about the phony “Palestinian crisis” that created a refugee movement with your precious Muslim states encouraging Muslims to flee the area (for no good reason) only to shut them out of the Muslim countries, thus manufacturing the “crisis” of not being able to return to the “homeland”.

It’s a filthy chapter in the sordid tale of how these people were abused by fellow Muslims - and the unclean hands belong to the exact Muslims states and factions now calling for some tenderness for the Palestinians. But you knew that.

You should be embarrassed, Lixy, but I am sure you won’t be - the plight of the Palestinians was created as pure pretext for you and those that share your ideology to attack Israel. Muslims don’t give a damn about the Palestinians, never have. The “Palestinian Cause” is nothing but a stalking horse for ridding the world of Israel - problem is, you keep trying to sell it, and we’ve all figured out its snake oil.[/quote]

How convenient for the Jews they were able to grab the land the Palestinians were driven off by their Muslim brothers. That IS what you’re saying, is it not?

You’re a moron. You believe every lie you’re ever told. You’re incapable of independant thought and you wouldn’t recognise the truth if it bit you in the tongue.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Have a look at the good Doctor’s post - I’d only remind you about the phony “Palestinian crisis” that created a refugee movement with your precious Muslim states encouraging Muslims to flee the area (for no good reason) only to shut them out of the Muslim countries, thus manufacturing the “crisis” of not being able to return to the “homeland”.

It’s a filthy chapter in the sordid tale of how these people were abused by fellow Muslims - and the unclean hands belong to the exact Muslims states and factions now calling for some tenderness for the Palestinians. But you knew that.

You should be embarrassed, Lixy, but I am sure you won’t be - the plight of the Palestinians was created as pure pretext for you and those that share your ideology to attack Israel. Muslims don’t give a damn about the Palestinians, never have. The “Palestinian Cause” is nothing but a stalking horse for ridding the world of Israel - problem is, you keep trying to sell it, and we’ve all figured out its snake oil.[/quote]

Why are you bringing up religion? In the few lines above, you use the term “Muslim” six times. What’s up with that?

I know perfectly well that the Arab states screwed the Palestinians royally. But I also know that those people would be peacefully cultivating their olive trees were it not for Israel.

There is no snake oil but the one you’re trying to sell. You speak of “the exact Muslims states and factions now calling for some tenderness for the Palestinians”, failing to realize that if the US didn’t throw out its veto dozens of times behind Israel, the conflict would have been resolved long ago. Every country on Earth condemns Israel, but the United States. That makes your country the de facto enabler of the horrific treatment the Palestinians are subjected to. My “ideology” on this issue happens to coincide with what everybody wants: A peaceful resolution of the conflict. But this discussion is irrelevant to me, since there are too many grievances on both sides for it to ever happen. If I was Palestinian, I would never accept the scattered bantustan proposed by the Israelis. On the other hand, if I were Israeli, I would never give up what my people would have fought so hard to acquire. The discussion ends right here for me.

Now, I’ll get back to my question. Why did you feel the need to get all riled up over the use of the term “Palestinian land”? I am not sure if you were siding with GK or if you were just looking to pick a fight. Do you think it was appropriate to compare Egypt to Israel? If not, what term would you have used instead of “Palestinian land”? If you felt so strongly about that abuse of language to the point of calling it a “cheap myth”, surely you must have suggestions to replace it. To me, semantics don’t deserve qualifiers such as as “cheap myth”, “brainless”, “snake oil” or any of your other trademark crap you throw in to deflect from the topic and attack the person making the arguments.

I’ll make you a deal; if you can find me a concise way to define the pre-1948 lands bought and expropriated by the Zionists, I’ll edit my first post.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Let us not forget the Jewish refugees pushed out of muslim/arab lands.[/quote]

Let us not forget the thousands of Jews that still live in muslim/arab lands peacefully.

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Let us not forget the Jewish refugees pushed out of muslim/arab lands.

Let us not forget the thousands of Jews that still live in muslim/arab lands peacefully.

[/quote]

I’m sorry, but how does that relate to the late '40’s? If you’ll take notice, the discussion seems to be focused on 60 some years ago. If you care to join in, do so.

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Let us not forget the Jewish refugees pushed out of muslim/arab lands.

Let us not forget the thousands of Jews that still live in muslim/arab lands peacefully. [/quote]

It is worth noting that Mohamed V (grand-dad of the current king of Morocco) refused categorically to have the antisemitic laws of the Vichy government applied in Morocco. He was repeatedly exiled because of that, among other things.

So let us not forget the Jews who wished they were pushed out of European lands.

On a side note, Sloth, why do you associate the Palestinians to what other “muslim/arab lands” have done? I mean, isn’t it the same as associating Brazilians to Greeks and hold one accountable for the actions of the other because they share the same religion?

[quote]lixy wrote:

On a side note, Sloth, why do you associate the Palestinians to what other “muslim/arab lands” have done? I mean, isn’t it the same as associating Brazilians to Greeks and hold one accountable for the actions of the other because they share the same religion?[/quote]

Where did I do this? I said exactly what you have in quotes. I don’t know why YOU are bringing up palestinians. As far as simply bringing up the Jewish refugess of that time period (and beyond), it sort of has a big impact on the formative stages of this conflict. And since we’re discussing refugees during the initial stages, let’s not exclude the Jewish refugees. That would seem, you know, like cherry-picking.

[quote]lixy wrote:

I know perfectly well that the Arab states screwed the Palestinians royally. But I also know that those people would be peacefully cultivating their olive trees were it not for Israel.[/quote]

Then stop there. The Arab states screwed the Palestinian people. Period. That is the source of the problem. While other nations were trying to hammer out workable solutions, Arab states and the Arabs that make them up created this nonsense. The rest is just noise.

This is pure whining from you, and it is irrelevant. What matters is why the “crisis” started in the first place. You want to whistle past the Arab culpability and skip to the part, years later, where Israel is condemned by the international community. Convenient for you, but incorrect. You can’t ameliorate the error until you are willing to treat the source of the problem - Arab nations and peoples.

Palestinians are subject to horrible treatment because they continue to elect murderous Muslim ideologies in lieu of choosing peace. While I hold them responsible for their own choices, in one sense I don’t blame them - after all, they have few options when Arabs and Muslims continue to use them as puppets to work against their grudge against Israel.

Your ideology - the convenient victimization of Palestinians, which serves only as a means to criticize the hated Israel - is exactly what keeps Palestinians poor, uneducated, and living in war. Don’t blame Israel - Arabs and Muslims started the Palestinian cause as a proxy to wage war on Israel, and Palestinians have suffered ever since. At least have the decency to admit it and apologize to them.

Fact is, if Palestinians ever achieved a happy, peaceful co-existence with Israel, that would be bad news for you and your ideology. After all, if understanding is achieved, where do you go from there to get philosophical cover for your real agenda of ridding the world of Israel? You need Palestinians to suffer in a world of chaos - it serves your ends. You have zero interest in helping them - it is directly against your interest.

Nothing but a lie - you need victimization. It underpins everything you want to complain about. If Arabs actually cared, they would have never started wars with Israel in the first place, and then they would have absorbed Palestinians into other Arab societies.

Instead, Palestinians are used. And your hands are bloody. Peace with Israel does you no good - so don’t pretend you support it.

Then quit typing on the computer created by evil corporations. We’ve waited on you to smartly know when to silence yourself - and we are still waiting.

Because there is no such thing as “Palestinian land”, as I said above - and you stated I was correct.

Without question.

Here come the waterworks from Lixy.

It is a cheap myth. It is “cheap” because it is believed by members of your ideology because it is easy - it fits neatly into the narrative you need and you don’t have to do any hard thinking. It is a “myth” because, well, it is not true.

And, no there is no deflection from the topic by my using those phrases - I think everyone reading my post knows exactly my position.

Question is - why do you always whine about it?

Pre-1948? I’d call that British, prior to that, Ottoman. Losing wars has consequences.

[quote]Wreckless wrote:

How convenient for the Jews they were able to grab the land the Palestinians were driven off by their Muslim brothers. That IS what you’re saying, is it not?

You’re a moron. You believe every lie you’re ever told. You’re incapable of independant thought and you wouldn’t recognise the truth if it bit you in the tongue.[/quote]

Your country was up for sale on eBay - you have more important things to focus on than coming here and lowering the collective IQ.

[quote]lixy wrote:
I mean, isn’t it the same as associating Brazilians to Greeks and hold one accountable for the actions of the other because they share the same religion?[/quote]

Hadn’t realized there were that many Orthodox Christians in Brazil.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

Losing wars has consequences.

[/quote]

I’ll say it does. Saigon was such a nice name. “Ho Chi Minh City” just sounds tacky. Shame about that.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
lixy wrote:
I mean, isn’t it the same as associating Brazilians to Greeks and hold one accountable for the actions of the other because they share the same religion?

Hadn’t realized there were that many Orthodox Christians in Brazil.[/quote]

Probably more Iranian backed Hezbollah terrorists, actually.