Efficacy of .380 APC

Bigger Stronger Leaner
1

Hi all,

I’m contemplating purchasing a Sig P238 (.380 acp). I currently own a Springfield XD subcompact in 9mm, but the double stack mag pistol is a brick compared to the minuscule P238. I prefer appendix carry, and the XD does not have a manual safety. Seems like a bad idea to have a loaded round pointing at my genitals and femoral artery. Plus, I live in a climate that is very warm in the spring, summer, and fall. The Sig seems like it would melt away even under warm weather attire. My only concern is the efficacy of the .380 round. I’m also thinking of a P938 (9mm), but I’ve heard quite a few people have had issues with theirs. The roil is also reportedly quite snappy. Any thoughts will be deeply appreciated.

2

Bismark,

A 380 is significantly better than finger nails and bad language. You knew that. It is also less desirable than a full power service cartridge. You knew that as well of course.

Modern jacketed hollow points are pretty damn amazing compared to what was available in the past for 9mm/.40/.45. There are multiple loadings that pass FBI testing and are available on the civilian/private sector market. With the .380 it is more a matter of prioritizing expansion OR penetration because there just isn’t enough energy/momentum to get a bunch of expansion and penetrate more than 12" in testing media.

One opinion on dealing with this is to use fmj ammo in the .380 since if the round doesn’t go deep enough to hit vital structures.how big a hole it makes isn’t as important. That sounds good, but the current ammo shortage has seen quality control go down as manufacturers are running 24/7. Because of that I would probably opt to carry a premium round just for the extra QC. Here is a link to a youtube reviewer who shoots ammo through organic gelatin.

I would be fine with the gold dots or critical defense from the list as well.

I think the value of the .380 is when you either want a really tiny gun, Ruger LCP, or you are looking to mitigate recoil so that the shooter can perform better.

The sig you are looking at is a bit on the “large” and heavy side for a .380, which I think is actually a very good thing. Personally I can’t shoot the micro 380’s like the LCP well enough to prefer them to a knife. The larger guns can be easier to make hits with than a .38special j-frame and being auto-loaders are much quicker to reload.

I don’t have any first person feed bag on the sig 238 except to say I know a few, more casual shooters who love theirs I have heard and read that the 938 has issues on occasion. It is difficult to get a 9mm THAT small and have it work. I personally carry a Kahr CM9 that has been great, but Kahr’s have their quirks and if you internet the CM9/PM9 series you will notice there seems to be a higher incidence of problems than with duty sized autos. I have been impressed with the M&P Shield, Walther PPS, and Glock 43 for single stack 9mm’s as well. They are all bigger than the Kahr, but if you aren’t looking to pocket carry that is less of an issue.

I don’t have any long term experience with the XD line, I have always shied away because of the lack of large agency contracts for the XD’s compared to Glock/Sig/S&W. Still, the people I talk to who have them love them. The XDs is a single stack in that line that is well reviewed.

One issue is that I would consider heavily is adding a level of complexity to the manual of arms for a gun that could get fired/practiced with less often than the full size XD. I am not by any means anti frame mounted safety, but if you are at all like me the cheaper cost of 9mm and comfort of shooting the full size gun will make it see more range time. The fact most training courses are set up for a modern double stack will further this along. So I could see the on target/off safe-off target/back on safe thing getting less time than it should if it were me. Don’t be an idiot like I would.

If we are talking concealment we should probably start with the holsters. For carrying inside the waist and forward of the hip I really like the offerings from JM Custom Kydex and Darkstar Gear. For the small autos I think Tom from Darkstar Gear knocks it out of the park especially well. His small fixed blade sheath is also great. A dedicated gun belt and a good holster may make the double stack a lot more concealable.

What are you carrying in now?

Regards,

Robert A

3

Robert, excellent post.

Bismark,
From personal experience, I have seen the .380 fail three times. I would not recommend the round, I am sure others have been successful, but, these were actual shootings, with the bullets hitting the chest, legs, and stomach area. Two were using hollow points and one FMJ. Hollow points out of a pistol length barrel are iffy at best, regardless of what the manufacturer claims. The last time I was in the states, I had the opportunity to fire 250 rounds through the Glock 43. I was surprised by the slim profile and for a small pistol, magazine change was adequate after some practice. 6 round magazine, very concealable, recoil was medium, with muzzle blast on the sharp side. If you have access to a firing range that rents handguns, I would certainly give it some consideration. However, in full disclosure, I don’t carry anything smaller than a .45 (personal time), belonging to the group that “carries a caliber starting with a 4, because they always hit the floor”.:)). Have you considered the baby Glock .45?

4

.45 because they don’t make a .46

A lot of folks really love the mini Glock .45’s. They seem to be freakishly accurate and they are right at that Glock 19 size/sweet spot (just thicker/chunkier) for shootability vs concealibility.

I am fully embracing the 9mm is best millimeter for my combat Tupperware. I would feel less inadequate if mapwhap was weighing in, since he is firmly in the no gear-queer just practice camp with handguns.
In any event. Glock, because we like our handguns like we like our women.

  • Inexpensive

  • Easily replaceable

  • 50% plastic

  • Not picky about lubrication

Unfortunately Glock has nothing to offer Bismark since he has articulated a preference for a manual safety. I get the desire, as I am no bullshit a bit scared every time I reholster.

As far as .380 I don’t think it is that terrible a choice if you are stuck with size and recoil compromises. I would never pick it for a belt gun, but concealment is a land of compromises. I get the “dress around the gun” argument, and try to practice it as much as possible. In reality though if I have to tuck in a shirt it goes out the window. Under a loose button up shirt I can conceal a Glock 19 fine. Under a XL t-shirt or a tighter button up a Glock 26 keeps me from looking like I have a colostomy. If the t-shirt is only a large I am down to my Kahr CM9.(It should be understood that my actual shirt size would best be described as “extra medium”) If I have to tuck in a shirt I am stuck doing the math of

Which is better? A small, harder to shoot gun in a pocket holster, or a larger and more capable gun in a deep concealment/tuckable holster?

Currently my scratch paper shows a Kahr CM9 in an Alabama Pocket holster is a more robust solution than something I have to undress to get to. That may change.

Concealment also depends a bunch on permissive vs non-permissive environment(some read that as fired, some read it as charged, and others read it as dressed up like a traffic cone and executed on video). Also there is a bit of difference between “concealing” in a suit that is cut like a potato sack, when it is ok to be “made” as security/being armed and having to “dress to impress” and staying concealed when you are actively trying to hold people’s attention. I don’t know what the OP is looking to get done.

Any of this helping Bismark?

Regards,

Robert A

5

Thank you both for your insights. I am new to the world of handguns and CC. Appendix carry is my preferred method. It’s acceptably comfortable (that would likely be very with the smaller gun) and I can draw at a reasonable speed. I’m a bit concerned about having the business end of a loaded gun pointed at my gentlemen parts and femoral artery, even with the trigger and grip safety of the XD. Is my concern valid? In addition to the safety aspect, there is the issue of dressing around the gun. I’m 175@ 5’ 8" and wear fairly fitted clothing. A double stack is not easy for me to conceal while wearing shorts, for example. I also have to wear a suit and tie during the workweek. During winter, that wouldn’t be an issue. That season is painfully short in my region, however. Given that I feel the (misguided?) need for a Manuel safety while carrying appendix, wouldn’t I necessarily need to also get a larger caliber 1911 style handgun to carry as weather permits? The .380 ACP ammo review was insightful. Given the results of the winners circle, would you feel comfortable carrying the P238 when the environment favored it? Are Manuel safeties important to y’all when selecting a carry weapon? Apologies for the rant.

6

All safety issues are valid concerns. I am firm believer in the right or left index finger being the primary safety on a gun. I do not use the appendix carry, since, for me it places the weapon in range of your opponents hands and I have found it awkward to access the weapon with any speed. I would think a small handgun with a tiny grip would be even worse. A modern handgun which is mechanically sound, coupled with a proper fitting holster, should not be a safety issue for your preferred method of carry. Just keep your finger off the trigger during the draw and re holster.

From personal experience, I would never use a holster that I could replace the pistol with one hand. Other than gun magazines, I am not familiar with the XD, having never shot one, but, if you carry a weapon with a de-cocker lever and, carry it with the de-cocker lever in the down position, then you will need to train drawing and “swiping up” as you come on target. Basically, they are a solution to a non existent problem and will get you killed without ingrained training.

No, any type of safety is not important to me, since, I have operated for years with the safety being my right index finger.

Environment and clothing play a critical role in carrying weapons. I have operated in South America, Central America, and the Middle East where the heat an humidity were a bitch and in Nordic countries where I was so cold, I wasn’t good for anything except for cannon fodder.

I cannot advise you about wearing a suit, since, I haven’t worn one for several years. In hot weather, when body armor is not worn, I wear a light tee with either a 5.11 “lite” tactical shirt or a Colombia “fishing guide shirt” over my carry weapons. I have found this a good compromise for staying cool and still having access to my pistol. The shirts are cut wide with good coverage and I have several in extra larger sizes to cover soft body armor or a plate carrier, when needed for a detail.

As far as winter wear, just don’t pick anything that you cannot unzip for access, wearing heavy sweaters, hoodies, or anything that you “pull on” will guarantee you pawing for your weapon like a black bear looking for grubs. If the environment is so cold that parkas are required , then carry the pistol in the front pockets, better than nothing. As far as you choice of caliber, IMHO, the colder it gets, the bigger the caliber, all those layers of clothes have to be penetrated. Small calibers will not do the job.

I buy my shirts and tactical clothing from: www.lapolicegear.com They often have closeout sales on their shirts, since the damn things are outrageously expensive.

7

Looking in my reloading manual, it seems as though the ballistics, muzzle velocity, bullet weight and diameter between the .380acp and the 9mm parabellum show only negligible differences. As far as hunting rounds go, I know that a seemingly large difference between loads on paper does not necessarily translate to a large difference in performance on a boar or a buck. At least not one that you will notice in practice.

Keep mind that I am not a law enforcement officer or a military veteran, just a redneck who likes fresh meat and reloadimg ammo, but I have noticed the greatest difference in performance when I actually backed off of the velocity a bit and started casting my own rounds. Cast rounds (particularly heavy grain semi wad cutters cast from old wheel weights) seem to have the perfect blend of expansion, penetration and accuracy when fired at sub-maximal velocities. They must be fired at no more than 1000fps unless you harden the alloy or use a gas check because of barrel leading.Even poorly placed shots will cause a boar to bleed out with less than a short hike of tracking and the heavy blood trail makes that part easy. Keeping in mind that wild animals are infinitely tougher than humans, I can only imagine what a wide meplat, heavy grain round in front of 5 grains of Unique powder through a .380acp would do to a human assailant regardless of the firearm from which it was discharged.

Cast rounds also expand in the chamber exponentially larger than copper jacketed rounds and due to their softness and low melting point they “hug” the rifling perfectly. This translates to better accuracy and longer barrel life which are hard perks to overlook.

8

That may be the case for hand-reloaded or FMJ rounds at standard pressure, but the actual performance difference between the two rounds is significant once you start talking about high-end defensive ammo.

There is a reason you won’t find any US Law Enforcement Agencies issuing .380 duty sidearms. You will, however, find many issuing 9mm loaded with, say, 124 gr +P Speer Gold Dots or another brand of high-end ammo.

9

Well, making ultra high quality, precision rounds is sort of the point of hand loading. Aside from that though, both weapons have a maximum pressure limit of around 40K psi depending on the firearm (there are probably some that can handle higher levels, Rugers in particular) but using those pressure limits they can both push a 125gr sjh in the ballpark of 1100fps. I don’t see a reason that you couldn’t find commercially available ammunition with similar ballistics in both calibers if you weren’t a handloader. 9mm ammo does tend to be less expensive which may play a role in it’s more widespread use amongst LE. Just a guess, as I have no real insight in that regard.

10

The reason is simple. No such ammunition exists for .380. You have to make a choice between penetration (FMJ) and expansion (HP).

I know of no commercially-available .380 round that approaches the terminal ballistic performance of a Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +p hollow point, or [take your pick of any other high quality 9mm round]. Do you?

The FBI has tested this stuff quite rigorously. No .380 offering meets their performance standards. Modern 9mm defensive ammo does. That’s why you have many agencies using the latter, but none using the former. The difference is significant.

11

Has the FBI tested .380 ACP to the degree that it has service calipers? I haven’t came across that, but if it’s out there I’d appreciate a link. The video Robert posted was the results of an ad hoc test. While many of the rounds tested failed to perform well, the winner’s circle appears to be adequate. Any thoughts?

12

You may find some useful info here:

Choosing a weapon for self defense is an extremely personal decision and it is not my intention to tell you what to do. All I can say is, I have seen it fail in deadly force alterations and would never carry one, unless, as Robert said, its better than bad language. Can you even imagine carrying a .380 in a war zone? If not, why would you carry one for defense? It doesn’t matter if its a trained terrorist , a harden felon, or a pissed off driver, the situation is still the same: someone is trying to kill you. My only other recommendation is, if you choose the .380, allow for a generous ammo budget and practice dry fire daily and live fire as much as possible. There are no sure things, but, if I was forced to use a .380, then I would train at 15 yard, 7 yard, and 3 yard line. I would heavily specialize in throat shots, soft tissue with a chance of making a quick stop. Stay safe, train smart and hard.

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[quote=“Bismark, post:5, topic:215126”]
I am new to the world of handguns and CC. Appendix carry is my preferred method.[/quote]
I don’t recommend anyone carry forward of the hip, mostly because of inertia, but partially because I have similar concerns about there being a greater likelihood of bleeding out/self feminizing by means of jacketed hollowpoint. That said, I carry in whatever the hell the lefty version of appendix is, so I guess sigmoid colon carry. In any event I will recommend you start dedicating a shit ton of dry practice to drawing and reholstering with a 100% commitment to trigger and muzzle discipline as well as time.

This is why I asked about what gear you are using right now. A lot of folks find a longer barrel works better appendix. It sort of outriggers the gun and helps hold it stable. A shorter barrel/holster can “roll” over the belt which prints like you wouldn’t believe. As an example, my Glock holster is for a 17/22 length gun, but I only carry a 19 or 26 in it. The holster length secures the gun, even if I need the benefits of the shorter grip.

I have already said I am legitimately scared of shooting myself anytime I reholster a firearm. It doesn’t keep me from practicing, but my mindset is definitely in the “I am doing something with the potential to kill me” place.
That said let’s work through the process a bit. When holstered the gun may be pointed at arteries or genitals when standing, and it almost certainly is when sitting. There are two means I see for an actually holstered firearm to fire.

  • Catastrophic Mechanical Failure-Parts of the gun that should be holding the firing group/hammer/sear/striker at tension fail and/or disintegrate and we get a bang. This is really, really unlikely.

  • Something works the trigger-There are documented cases of fabric like a shirt tail or a pull string getting into the trigger guard of a firearm as it is holstered. The gun goes all the way in, then additional movement pulls the foreign material taught against the trigger and the loud noise happens. This seems likely to be catastrophic if the barrel is down the front of your pants and you are seated, and noticeably less so if you are carrying well behind the hip. An additional risk is if the holster you are using is inappropriate or in bed repair and some part of the holster itself performs this function. Gear selection is big here.

Of those two possibilities additional manual safeties that “turn off” the bang switch/trigger can be seen as being good hedges against the second. IF we are worried about the first, we are going to worry no matter what. I suppose if the first instance is a huge concern it would be points towards selecting double action weapons since there should be less possibility of a discharge even if parts of the mechanism literally disappear compared to a “cocked and locked” auto.
There is a counter to these concerns that can be made when we look at drawing and re holstering as an activity. Damn near everyone sweeps there own leg drawing and reholstering inside the waistband at or behind the hip. If you don’t believe this to be true, just watch actual experts do it. The muzzle crosses a lot of meet and you can hit important arteries in a lot of it. A strong side, outside the waistband holster is really the safest answer here.
Forward of the hip the gun doesn’t have to cover any part of your body until the trigger and trigger guard are completely covered. It is much, much easier to “look” the gun into a holster and to do visual and tactile confirmation that the holster mouth is clear when it is in front of you and both hands can get to it. I favor rigid holster designs and I like kydex because I can get it in obnoxious colors that are not even remotely like anything I would wear. This makes seeing foreign matter really easy. I also favor a full sweat guard both so the rear sights of my guns doesn’t cut the shit out me and so that I can push the sweat guard into my gut, levering the barrel end of the holster away from my body, before I insert the gun into the holster mouth. I couple this with leaning back/lumbar extension and I minimize the barrel being pointed at my anatomy.
There are absolutely professions where no look, fast reholstering is important. I think going outside the waistband, with an offset laterally away from the belt is the answer for most of them. Couple that with the fact that good retention holsters tend to be bulky and if you are speed holstering you may well want retention functions and I am comfortable making all my concealed reholstering a slower process.

[quote]
In addition to the safety aspect, there is the issue of dressing around the gun. I’m 175@ 5’ 8" and wear fairly fitted clothing. A double stack is not easy for me to conceal while wearing shorts, for example.[/quote]
Well, “dress around the gun” is sort of a mantra for those that want to maximize the problem solving potential of the tools they carry. Holster and belt selection is also key here. There are single stack 9mm handguns that might work very well if you can tolerate an untucked shirt. If the shorts don’t have a belt that complicates things a bit, although both of the holster manufacturers I mentioned offer some small auto or j-frame holsters with very rugged steel clips. Darkstar Gear has especially nice solutions for getting a rule one gun into the front of your waistband.

[quote]
I also have to wear a suit and tie during the workweek.[/quote]
If you would be carrying at work, or gearing up while wearing work clothes that is an issue. If work/locations traveled during the workday prohibit carry than you may not have to solve this problem.
My own math/practice has convinced my that pocket carry gets a gun into my hand faster and more robustly than the other "deep"ish cover options like SmartCarry, Thunderwear, or tuckable inside the waistband holsters. The compromise is gun selection favors smaller autos and access while sitting requires the “hump the sky” move we all have had to make at toll booths and drive throughs. Drawing while moving is also right out, but that wasn’t really and option when untucking multiple layers of clothing either.

[quote]
During winter, that wouldn’t be an issue.That season is painfully short in my region, however. [/quote]
I think I am supposed to start cursing that anyone would bitch about it not being cold enough, long enough.

I wouldn’t say it is misguided. Your comfort level is your own, and there is a lot to be said for anything that adds layers of safety. I don’t necessarily think the firearm has to be a 1911 style, but having a frame mounted safety could be a boon to training efficiency. Smith and Wesson offers their M&P pistols with manual, 1911 style, thumb safeties and I really like both the .40 and .45 offerings from them(also appeases the desire for a bigger bullet). Sig is supposed to be offering a manual safety for their P320(I think 9mm might be the choice in that line) series as well. So, if you want to keep the lower cost and ease of maintenance of the plastic, disposable, soulless, striker fired volkspistols like your XD you have options there as well.

As far as I know no .380 meets the FBI spec for barrier testing. It really isn’t in the same “duty” category as 9/40/45. That said I would rather have a .380 I could shoot well than a 9mm that I couldn’t manage if my needs dictated a certain size of pistol. I have tried to shoot .357 out of the .357 j-frame guns and it was not something I would repeat. It is possible that I could be convinced to use a Glock 42(380 the same size as my Kahr) for my pocket/fitted t-shirt gun if I was able to shoot it appreciably better than the micro 9mm. Likewise I would be willing to load target wadcutters in .38 rather than +P rounds that perform better so that I could manage the recoil better. In j-frames just finding ammo that matches the sights would actually be my first concern. Been there, done that, sold gun, bought auto.
The biggest issue for me with a p238 would be that I would want something that could be pocket carried, and I am not pocketing a cocked semi-auto. Not because I am worried it would go off, I would be using a form fitted holster, but because I would worry it wouldn’t. Pockets and “deep concealment” locations mean lint. Like, “I had no idea I was this filthy of a bastard” levels of lint. I would not want to risk a bunch of lint/padding getting between the hammer and the firing pin when I needed the weapon to be able to fire.
So the P238 wouldn’t really fill all my needs. I would still want something for pocket carry, and I would try my damndest to get at least a 9mm something into my waistband even for casual/hot and muggy weather carry. The fact Idaho is against 380 just about seals that for me. He is one of the few folks on these boards that if he told me I was completely fucked up about something pertaining to violence I would begin making the correction and then ask why.
Ergonomic safeties are very important to me with regards to long guns, but I try to cover that base with holster selection for handguns.

Hope some of this was helpful.

Regards,

Robert A

1 Like
14

Loftearmen,

I am not sure what reloading data you are using, but I would be shocked if we got “equal” weight and velocity out of the 9mm vs .380.

If you did load up 9mm powered .380 I would be thinking about case strength and what the hell we could safely shoot it through. A lot of 380’s are blowback vs a browning tilt barrel design. Shooting a 9mm through a slide and spring geared to 380 seems like asking for case rupture or worse.

Are you sure about your numbers>

Regards,

Robert A

15

This is 180 degrees from my experience with draw speed. I think it makes for a much faster draw. Hands have to cover less distance and there is less shoulder articulation. If you have a “range” holster that is “straight drop”/has no cant and a belt that you can move it around on without stripping a ton of gear off try some draws at3 o’clock and then move the holster forward of that hip.
I have had people tell me that it is “faster” to draw from behind the hip, while at the same time they would run their reloads as far forward as possible. I know you didn’t say it couldn’t be fast, but honestly I think it is telling that the gun games where they are only concerned with speed limit forward of the hip carry to the more gamer/gear queer divisions and nobody sticks a canted holster behind their strong side hip.
I wouldn’t say it is better for speed. I think the point of the hip is best, but I can’t hide shit there. Given the choice between a highly canted auto at my 7:30 or a reverse cant at my 11:30 I find I can conceal a larger gun (19 instead of 26, 26 instead of CM9/pocket gun) and pick up about .30 seconds on the draw.

Here is SSG Tomasie. Now, his holster is at his 3, but it is a skeleton rig so he can get it going forward as quick as possible. Note the reload location. Also, Sweet 12 pound 10 ounce Baby Odin the guys in the AMU are fucking cyborgs at shooting.

No discussion of appendix is acceptable without the Miami Vice clip.

RE: Weapon Retention
I agree that the front is likely towards the bad buy, at least we hope. What seems to be the case when I train this stuff though is that I “notice” the gun/weapon retention threat sooner and I have two hands/arms to foil it and start countering. I am not saying it is “more” easily defended, but I don’t think it creates any more problems.

The counter point is that I do not have the same kind of “strong side hip” awareness that someone who has carried a sidearm for decades in dangerous environments has. I tend to not be thinking “left hip” when I am tangled up asshole to elbow, but I do have years of training with groin strike/grab awareness so I might just be well below competency with this material.
The upshot of all this is I try to put any of my conflict resolution tools forward of my hips for access, and so I “only” have to defend that part of my wasteband. Is this a usable read? Am I thinking this through properly, or should I re-evaluate?

Regards,

Robert A

16

"he counter point is that I do not have the same kind of “strong side hip” awareness that someone who has carried a sidearm for decades in dangerous environments has. I tend to not be thinking “left hip” when I am tangled up asshole to elbow, but I do have years of training with groin strike/grab awareness so I might just be well below competency with this material.
The upshot of all this is I try to put any of my conflict resolution tools forward of my hips for access, and so I “only” have to defend that part of my wasteband. Is this a usable read? Am I thinking this through properly, or should I re-evaluate?

No, I think you do not have to evaluate anything, you have obviously thought this though and have a tactical plan on deploying your weapon with confidence, which places you far ahead in the game of survival. Good Guys die when they have no plan and the bad guy does. You are certainly correct about not wanting my right side toward an aggressor, and, that is my bias against that method of carry. However, in full disclosure, in the states, I often choose a method of carry to fit the environment I am going to be operating. Over here, I actually have three methods of carry, since, I have to work around body armor issues, Helios vs Vehicles, light armor vs heavy, etc.

To keep from hi-jacking Bismark’s thread, I am going to start a new thread on carry rigs and positions for carry. I don’t think we have discussed this before and maybe other forum members will chime in on their rigs. I will post some pictures of my current gear, both here and in the states. As my lady friend says, I have more holsters, than she has pairs of shoes.

I wish to God, I was as fast as SSG Tomasie, what can you say? but, Damn…

Great post on Miami Vice, and, some useless information: over here, if you have access to satellite/cable/ all the programming comes out of India. Tossed in between all the thrice cursed cricket matches, will be old U.S. programming and Miami Vice reruns are occasionally broadcast. Crockett’s Bren-10mm, now that was a pistol, I have shot the Glock 10mm, but, never had the pleasure of firing a Bren.

17

idaho,

Thanks for the feedback. It really was something I had to put thought and experimentation into. The clincher was being able to get a bigger/better gun as an actual carry weapon as opposed to just saying I was. I spent an embarrassing amount of time as the “Talks .45, practices with a 9mm, and carries a small .38” stereotype. Anyone else reading this thread, don’t be like I was.

RE: Holsters vs Shoes
You might come out ahead in the most uncomfortable to wear category. I know I have spent money on some holsters that absolutely did not meet requirements, including the not making me wince in pain one. Another reason I want to know what the OP is carrying in.

RE: Bren 10
I haven’t shot one either. At this point I think I would have to be disappointed in a “Never meet your heroes” kind of way.

Good idea for a new thread.

Regards,

Robert A

20

Then never watch Jerry Miculek. I am pretty sure as soon as he sees Sarah Conner she is as good as ended.

Horner, also in the AMU, is another frigging cyborg.

Of course Robby Leatham is another all time great, like Miculek. He has been in the game forever. Him and Enos basically created and popularized the thumbs forward grip basically every competitor and I think most high level organizations use for autos. Am I right on that idaho? That happened a long while ago and Leatham is still at the top of the pistol shooting sports. Shoots for Spingfield Armory, so he uses the XD’s to a high level (trying to keep this relevant for the OP).

Regards,

Robert A