T Nation

Education and Life

Do you think the way education is presented should be changed? When children are young we tell them that if they work hard enough that they can be anything they want to be. Although it sounds good and is a feel good statement, it simply isnt true. I believe that all children should be taught basic writing, reading, and math skills because you need those to survive in everyday life.

But I think at about age 13, up until 18 students should be sorted out. Forcing a child that obviously is never going to be a nuclear physicist to learn physics is im my opinion a waste of time and just hurts the students. Maybe this student may make a great electrician. So instead of spending his 4 high school years having to learn physics and the theory of evolution and other things that wont put a dime in his pocket, he should spend those four years apprenticing as an electrician, so when he graduates he will have a useful skill as opposed to making him learn physics, which he probably wont learn anyway, and then having the school system push him through so that the school will look good.

What is your opinion on this? It would be good to hear from those of you that are teachers.

I totally disagree with your opinion

[quote]clip11 wrote:
Do you think the way education is presented should be changed? When children are young we tell them that if they work hard enough that they can be anything they want to be. Although it sounds good and is a feel good statement, it simply isnt true. I believe that all children should be taught basic writing, reading, and math skills because you need those to survive in everyday life.

But I think at about age 13, up until 18 students should be sorted out. Forcing a child that obviously is never going to be a nuclear physicist to learn physics is im my opinion a waste of time and just hurts the students. Maybe this student may make a great electrician. So instead of spending his 4 high school years having to learn physics and the theory of evolution and other things that wont put a dime in his pocket, he should spend those four years apprenticing as an electrician, so when he graduates he will have a useful skill as opposed to making him learn physics, which he probably wont learn anyway, and then having the school system push him through so that the school will look good.

What is your opinion on this? It would be good to hear from those of you that are teachers.[/quote]

I feel the very same way

“What is the point of learning if one has no intention to put what one has learned into practise- Confucius”

Honestly I can say that the majority of what I learned in high school has been an enormous waste. I think that if kids were just taught essential math, language and science to a certain point as you said 13, and then had the choice of what they want to learn, society would be much more productive.

There are simply too many children and to few teachers to individualise a childs education. Hence the glorified day care that school is. The majority of the responsibility is on parents to recognize their childs potential and act accordingly.

i do and dont agree with what you have said. It is kind of like what youre saying except that the choice comes at age 18 after highschool where they can either continue their education or learn a trade at that point. But i do feel that there is too much pressure on everyone to go to college even if it is not in their bet interest. The pressure to go to college is overwhelming and i feel that needs to change.

[quote]clip11 wrote:
Do you think the way education is presented should be changed? When children are young we tell them that if they work hard enough that they can be anything they want to be. Although it sounds good and is a feel good statement, it simply isnt true.
[/quote]

I think that children don’t believe that it’s true either, and I think that’s the problem.

No 13 yr old knows whether or not he wants to be an electrician. There might be 1 in a million that really enjoys playing with and building circuits - but who is to say whether he becomes an electrician or an electrical engineer?

The only reason some 13 yr old would consider picking a career path at that age (which is different from a field of interest) is if he was influenced by some disillusioned adults.

I agree that our education system isn’t great - but forcing some naive kid who spends the majority of his time worrying about whether or not his pimple will go away before the 8th grade social to pick his lot in life is not a solution.

There could be more useful classes for sure - like how business works in the real world, how to be an effective communicator, how to sell things (both to the masses and other businesses), how marketing works in the real world, and part of these classes could have a real world component. But if ways to actually get ahead were taught in school, who would the movers and shakers move and shake?

OP-

You do realize that a significant portion of human development happens between the ages of 13-18, right?

If you read Outliers, it talks a lot about how past a certain point, innate talent doesn’t matter. If you’re smart enough, i.e above average then you can achieve just as much as someone with a 200 IQ. A lot of it has to do with the amount of time you’ve spent on any given task, like math or some such thing.

I’m studying to be a teacher, and I do think that a lot of the way things are taught are quite useless. I don’t know how I feel about the apprenticeship deal though. I mean how do you decide who should study something vocational and who should go to college?

On a side note, I feel that people spend too much time glorifying the diversity bullshit in schools. Granted, I studied overseas in an international school, but still.

[quote]challer1 wrote:
clip11 wrote:
Do you think the way education is presented should be changed? When children are young we tell them that if they work hard enough that they can be anything they want to be. Although it sounds good and is a feel good statement, it simply isnt true.

I think that children don’t believe that it’s true either, and I think that’s the problem.

No 13 yr old knows whether or not he wants to be an electrician. There might be 1 in a million that really enjoys playing with and building circuits - but who is to say whether he becomes an electrician or an electrical engineer?

The only reason some 13 yr old would consider picking a career path at that age (which is different from a field of interest) is if he was influenced by some disillusioned adults.

I agree that our education system isn’t great - but forcing some naive kid who spends the majority of his time worrying about whether or not his pimple will go away before the 8th grade social to pick his lot in life is not a solution.

There could be more useful classes for sure - like how business works in the real world, how to be an effective communicator, how to sell things (both to the masses and other businesses), how marketing works in the real world, and part of these classes could have a real world component. But if ways to actually get ahead were taught in school, who would the movers and shakers move and shake?[/quote]

Agreed 100%.

[quote]clip11 wrote:
Do you think the way education is presented should be changed? When children are young we tell them that if they work hard enough that they can be anything they want to be. Although it sounds good and is a feel good statement, it simply isnt true. I believe that all children should be taught basic writing, reading, and math skills because you need those to survive in everyday life.

But I think at about age 13, up until 18 students should be sorted out. Forcing a child that obviously is never going to be a nuclear physicist to learn physics is im my opinion a waste of time and just hurts the students. Maybe this student may make a great electrician. So instead of spending his 4 high school years having to learn physics and the theory of evolution and other things that wont put a dime in his pocket, he should spend those four years apprenticing as an electrician, so when he graduates he will have a useful skill as opposed to making him learn physics, which he probably wont learn anyway, and then having the school system push him through so that the school will look good.

What is your opinion on this? It would be good to hear from those of you that are teachers.[/quote]

You realise you have a trannie in your avatar?

Schools in my region (southwestern PA) have technical programs that are the last half of the day for junior and senior years. They cover all of the trades, what ever your choice may be.

Why? Don’t other places do this?

who the fuck knows what they want to be when they are 13?

I’m 23 and still don’t know. dropped out of 2 programs. about to finish my third. and now i’m probably going to grad school but i have NO FUCKING CLUE what I wanna do other than get compensated for my efforts.

Just because you aren’t smart, doesn’t mean you can’t be a dumb business man. or scientist. Not everybody needs to become a professor, stock trader, nuclear physicist. We need secretaries. We need people of moderate intelligence to complete those jobs that are happy not excelling in their profession.

I know a lot of dumb people in my university classes. They are still trying. They want to be managers of stores or whatever other shit.

You can’t say to a child. “well, we’ve decided that you are dumb. time for you to be an electrician. sorry.”

AND. we teach kids in school these subjects to a) give them a taste of the world and b) so they aren’t neandrethals. They will have some diversified knowledge and know a little bit about the world.

I think education is crucial. I just don’t think it always has to be a college education. I have a well-paying but rigidly blue-collar job in which I, and nearly everyone around me, has at least one college degree. Yet, look where we all are. I joke all the time that the company in which I work is the only place I know of in which “a Ph.D. and a G.E.D. can be working side-by-side, making the exact same money.” Some of my co-workers will be paying down their student loans until they die so, really, what was the point? Meanwhile, colleges and universities are raking in the big bucks on the backs of ordinary people who can’t afford all they’re taking on.

I was in high school with a guy who rarely showed up for class, was always in trouble, regarded by most as a deadbeat loser from a family of deadbeat losers, and who most certainly was never encouraged to go to college by any guidance counselor… so he didn’t. Yet now, any time I find myself driving about the city during the day, no matter where I go, I almost always see a truck bearing his name, the name of his plumbing company. It’s one of the three top-rated plumbing businesses in a very competitive city. Balls, a few business courses, talent, a willingness to work hard, and some street smarts can get you just as far as a Ph.D., maybe even further.

Unless you’re planning to be a doctor, lawyer, or work for NASA, I think a case could be made that a college “education” is highly overrated… and I GOT one.

[quote]SirenSong61 wrote:
I think education is crucial. I just don’t think it always has to be a college education. I have a well-paying but rigidly blue-collar job in which I, and nearly everyone around me, has at least one college degree. Yet, look where we all are. I joke all the time that the company in which I work is the only place I know of in which “a Ph.D. and a G.E.D. can be working side-by-side, making the exact same money.” Some of my co-workers will be paying down their student loans until they die so, really, what was the point? Meanwhile, colleges and universities are raking in the big bucks on the backs of ordinary people who can’t afford all they’re taking on.

I was in high school with a guy who rarely showed up for class, was always in trouble, regarded by most as a deadbeat loser from a family of deadbeat losers, and who most certainly was never encouraged to go to college by any guidance counselor… so he didn’t. Yet now, any time I find myself driving about the city during the day, no matter where I go, I almost always see a truck bearing his name, the name of his plumbing company. It’s one of the three top-rated plumbing businesses in a very competitive city. Balls, a few business courses, talent, a willingness to work hard, and some street smarts can get you just as far as a Ph.D., maybe even further.

Unless you’re planning to be a doctor, lawyer, or work for NASA, I think a case could be made that a college “education” is highly overrated… and I GOT one.[/quote]

yes yes and yes

[quote]challer1 wrote:
clip11 wrote:
Do you think the way education is presented should be changed? When children are young we tell them that if they work hard enough that they can be anything they want to be. Although it sounds good and is a feel good statement, it simply isnt true.

I think that children don’t believe that it’s true either, and I think that’s the problem.

No 13 yr old knows whether or not he wants to be an electrician. There might be 1 in a million that really enjoys playing with and building circuits - but who is to say whether he becomes an electrician or an electrical engineer?

The only reason some 13 yr old would consider picking a career path at that age (which is different from a field of interest) is if he was influenced by some disillusioned adults.

I agree that our education system isn’t great - but forcing some naive kid who spends the majority of his time worrying about whether or not his pimple will go away before the 8th grade social to pick his lot in life is not a solution.

There could be more useful classes for sure - like how business works in the real world, how to be an effective communicator, how to sell things (both to the masses and other businesses), how marketing works in the real world, and part of these classes could have a real world component. But if ways to actually get ahead were taught in school, who would the movers and shakers move and shake?[/quote]

I wouldnt say forcing them to choose something. I was thinking that at the beginning of high school they take a test and according to the results of this test they are given a list of occupations that they may probably do well in and with the help of a career counselor make an informed choice on what they would focus on.

I think by high school you (or a professional) can tell whether a kid has the mind of a factory worker or a doctor.

[quote]mortune wrote:
who the fuck knows what they want to be when they are 13?

I’m 23 and still don’t know. dropped out of 2 programs. about to finish my third. and now i’m probably going to grad school but i have NO FUCKING CLUE what I wanna do other than get compensated for my efforts.

Just because you aren’t smart, doesn’t mean you can’t be a dumb business man. or scientist. Not everybody needs to become a professor, stock trader, nuclear physicist. We need secretaries. We need people of moderate intelligence to complete those jobs that are happy not excelling in their profession.

I know a lot of dumb people in my university classes. They are still trying. They want to be managers of stores or whatever other shit.

You can’t say to a child. “well, we’ve decided that you are dumb. time for you to be an electrician. sorry.”

Its not a point on telling a child theyre dumb, but why make them go down a path where they are almost certain to fail as opposed to putting them on one that they will succeed?

AND. we teach kids in school these subjects to a) give them a taste of the world and b) so they aren’t neandrethals. They will have some diversified knowledge and know a little bit about the world.[/quote]

Another one of Clip11’s excellent threads.

This is why vocational programs are important in high schools. I learned that I liked building furniture and working on cars during my teen years. Now I’m stuck in college trying to get done and knowing that I want to work skilled manual labor makes learning foreign language and behavioral neuroscience that much more challenging.

[quote]clip11 wrote:
challer1 wrote:
clip11 wrote:
Do you think the way education is presented should be changed? When children are young we tell them that if they work hard enough that they can be anything they want to be. Although it sounds good and is a feel good statement, it simply isnt true.

I think that children don’t believe that it’s true either, and I think that’s the problem.

No 13 yr old knows whether or not he wants to be an electrician. There might be 1 in a million that really enjoys playing with and building circuits - but who is to say whether he becomes an electrician or an electrical engineer?

The only reason some 13 yr old would consider picking a career path at that age (which is different from a field of interest) is if he was influenced by some disillusioned adults.

I agree that our education system isn’t great - but forcing some naive kid who spends the majority of his time worrying about whether or not his pimple will go away before the 8th grade social to pick his lot in life is not a solution.

There could be more useful classes for sure - like how business works in the real world, how to be an effective communicator, how to sell things (both to the masses and other businesses), how marketing works in the real world, and part of these classes could have a real world component. But if ways to actually get ahead were taught in school, who would the movers and shakers move and shake?

I wouldnt say forcing them to choose something. I was thinking that at the beginning of high school they take a test and according to the results of this test they are given a list of occupations that they may probably do well in and with the help of a career counselor make an informed choice on what they would focus on.

I think by high school you (or a professional) can tell whether a kid has the mind of a factory worker or a doctor.[/quote]

Meh, all students should be required to pass Algebra, Geometry, English, Literature, Physical Science, Chemistry, Biology, Citizenship, Economics, and Social Studies to earn a diploma regardless if they want a “college prep” or “vocational” diploma. There are certain things that ALL students need to know. This leaves half of their day to either take classes required for their particular program of choice. I think all students should take mandatory core classes their freshman year, then after that they may decide which diploma they would like to earn.

[quote]KyleT wrote:
clip11 wrote:
challer1 wrote:
clip11 wrote:
Do you think the way education is presented should be changed? When children are young we tell them that if they work hard enough that they can be anything they want to be. Although it sounds good and is a feel good statement, it simply isnt true.

I think that children don’t believe that it’s true either, and I think that’s the problem.

No 13 yr old knows whether or not he wants to be an electrician. There might be 1 in a million that really enjoys playing with and building circuits - but who is to say whether he becomes an electrician or an electrical engineer?

The only reason some 13 yr old would consider picking a career path at that age (which is different from a field of interest) is if he was influenced by some disillusioned adults.

I agree that our education system isn’t great - but forcing some naive kid who spends the majority of his time worrying about whether or not his pimple will go away before the 8th grade social to pick his lot in life is not a solution.

There could be more useful classes for sure - like how business works in the real world, how to be an effective communicator, how to sell things (both to the masses and other businesses), how marketing works in the real world, and part of these classes could have a real world component. But if ways to actually get ahead were taught in school, who would the movers and shakers move and shake?

I wouldnt say forcing them to choose something. I was thinking that at the beginning of high school they take a test and according to the results of this test they are given a list of occupations that they may probably do well in and with the help of a career counselor make an informed choice on what they would focus on.

I think by high school you (or a professional) can tell whether a kid has the mind of a factory worker or a doctor.

Meh, all students should be required to pass Algebra, Geometry, English, Literature, Physical Science, Chemistry, Biology, Citizenship, Economics, and Social Studies to earn a diploma regardless if they want a “college prep” or “vocational” diploma. There are certain things that ALL students need to know. This leaves half of their day to either take classes required for their particular program of choice. I think all students should take mandatory core classes their freshman year, then after that they may decide which diploma they would like to earn.[/quote]

Replace Social Studies with Philosophy and you have yourself a well rounded education.