Ectomorph Training?

Bigger Stronger Leaner
41

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]seekonk wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:

The “ectomorph” typing is complete BS. These people are just tall and skinnyfat. The skinnyfat belly look will go away after some good consistent training and eating. I think all these specialized low volume only compound ectomorph programs out there only worsen these guys.[/quote]

No, it is not BS. You misunderstand. We are talking about skinny LEAN people, not skinny fat, like you can see our abs and veins, who have difficulty gaining. [/quote]

?? I was an “ectomorph”. Not too many people would call me that now.

Savagenation just wrote the same…and no one would call him that now either.

Yes, for the most part, the average person even using these terms is using them WRONG.

They do NOT have full understanding of how the human body works and likely got what they think they know strictly off the internet.

Your body doesn’t give a shit about a label. If you have to eat more to gain weight, then fucking eat more.[/quote]

I used to hate advice like the advice Professor X is giving right now. I used to swear I was an ectomorph and nobody understood me.

But now I understand, calling yourself an ectomorph is just some stupid label that internet gurus gave out. I gained ~24 lbs of muscle in the past 3 years. That is not “crazy” by any means, but it took me from an “ectomorph” to a studly physique. My secret? Eating more and higher training intensity.

You have a high metabolism. That is it. You don’t have some predetermined fate where you are destined to be a skinny little bitch (like the name “ectomorph” implies).

Eat. Eat more than you think is acceptable. If you are still skinny and not gaining muscle, EAT MORE.

Increase your portion sizes to two of everything. If you go to Chipotle for lunch, get two burritos and two bags of chips. When you eat dinner, eat two steaks, two baked potatoes, two massive servings of vegetables. When you go out to dinner with friends, order a soup, a salad, an appetizer, and a large entree with extra sides. Add two scoops of protein in your post-workout drink. I think you get the picture here.

This advice is so frequently overused as a fix for everything. But it actually works, and there is a reason it is touted so often.

42

[quote]DSSG wrote:

[quote]seekonk wrote:
Better take some vitamin K2 (MK-7) with all that milk or your arteries are going to calcify. :slight_smile:

But aren’t there more concentrated protein sources (Greek yoghurt), whey shakes, etc., without all that liquid? [/quote]
I am not sure if you are trolling or not… I honestly don’t. As for why the milk, it isn’t for being a good source of protein (it certainly adds up and has high quality protein) but the fact that it very nutrient dense and easy to consume. [/quote]

All I meant with my example of Greek yoghurt was that you get exactly the same nutrients without having to gag down the gallon of liquid, which is going to a big problem for someone already struggling to eat enough.

43

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Yes, for the most part, the average person even using these terms is using them WRONG.

They do NOT have full understanding of how the human body works and likely got what they think they know strictly off the internet.
[/quote]

I am seriously curious what problem you have with the terminology. Are you saying that people don’t have genetic, hormonal, and metabolic differences? Why does it bug you when we say some people gain muscle more easily than others? Nobody is disputing that an ectomorph can gain weight, but it will take more effort and it is probably going to take longer.

The very fact that it will take more effort for one guy than for another proves that they have different types of bodies. Sure, the underlying reason may be different (some have less T receptors, others have higher thyroid, etc.) but “ectomorph” is pretty good as a shorthand that most people tend to get.

44

[quote]ns182 wrote:
Typical diet: 7AM Smoothie (1/3 veg, 2/3 fruit, whole milk, oats/barley/flax, yog, edamame, beans, rice, green tea, partial scoop of Beverly?s UMP?32oz, ~600cal)
10AM post workout shake (12oz whole milk, partial scoop of Beverly MP-trying not to spend all a teachers salary on protein) & cottage cheese
noon lunch- chef salad, veggies, fruit, milk (school lunch)
4PM tortillas & bean dip snack;
5pm- pork steak, baked potato, broccoli & cheese
8PM- 18oz whole milk w/ UMP.[/quote]
Just to clarify, up to and including lunch, you’re eating maybe 1,200 calories or so. If you broke 2,500 calories for the day, I’d be surprised. I hereby revoke your right to complain about or worry that you’re anywhere close to “force feeding.”

That’s a severe understatement. Your breakfast smoothie is a big snack, your post-workout nutrition is minimal when it should be a big flood of calories, and your snack and lunch are overall light in protein.

Dinner looks great though. Use that as a template for three meals a day - protein, carbs, and good fats. Shakes/smoothies are a convenient way to get big calories in, but they’ve got to be more substantial/higher calorie than your morning shake here.

Fair enough, but consider:
http://www.T-Nation.com/store/products/metabolic-drive-muscle-growth
Should work out less expensive than what you’re currently using.

Also, take a look at The Mighty Stu’s log. He’s a pro bodybuilder who’s gone through several contest preps while working as a teacher. You might be able to find some idea for eating properly during the day without compromising results.

45

[quote]StructureInChaos wrote:

Eat. Eat more than you think is acceptable.

Increase your portion sizes to two of everything. If you go to Chipotle for lunch, get two burritos and two bags of chips. When you eat dinner, eat two steaks, two baked potatoes, two massive servings of vegetables. When you go out to dinner with friends, order a soup, a salad, an appetizer, and a large entree with extra sides. Add two scoops of protein in your post-workout drink. I think you get the picture here. [/quote]

It doesn’t work so easily for everyone. Sure, eat more, but your example of a day’s diet would be unrealistic for many guys because digestive problems would get in the way in a major way, and they are forced to take it slower.

46

[quote]seekonk wrote:
It is not just frames. Some people have higher thyroid, or lower testosterone, to mention just two of many possible reasons they may be thinner and have a harder time gaining mass. You can call it something else if you want but it comes down to the same thing as being an ectomorph. [/quote]

If you have high levels of thyroid hormone or low levels of testosterone, you have medical conditions that need treatment. This is nothing like what people call an ectomorph, which is an invented construct, anyway.

If you are naturally smaller, you need to eat hard and train hard to get more muscular… like everyone else on the planet.

47

[quote]ns182 wrote:
When I quit lifting for a while & consciously eating more than I naturally would, my weight drops.[/quote]
Then don’t quit lifting. I’m Captain Obvious and this has been a public service announcement. :wink:

Reaching any worthwhile goal calls for a mild effort, if not more.

Yes and no. The saying “Bodybuilding is 80% nutrition” is pretty spot-on. In theory, you could do nothing but squats and barbell curls four days a week while eating plenty and you’ll add some size. As long as you’re eating properly, a lousy program is better than no program, but a well-designed program is obviously best of all.

Not sure what you’re getting at. If you want to train your whole body in each session, there are programs for that. Yes, that’s a huge source of arguments online, but both methods work well.

5/3/1 has a full body template or there are oodles of other whole body routines. For now though, I suggest sticking to the “boring but big” program as laid out.

48

[quote]Consul wrote:

[quote]seekonk wrote:
It is not just frames. Some people have higher thyroid, or lower testosterone, to mention just two of many possible reasons they may be thinner and have a harder time gaining mass. You can call it something else if you want but it comes down to the same thing as being an ectomorph. [/quote]

If you have high levels of thyroid hormone or low levels of testosterone, you have medical conditions that need treatment. This is nothing like what people call an ectomorph, …[/quote]

Of course it is - people can have widely different genetic setpoints for these hormones, and on top of that widely different variations in receptor densities, still within the normal healthy ranges, that sure don’t warrant medical treatment but will make big differences in how the body responds to food and exercise.

49

[quote]seekonk wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Yes, for the most part, the average person even using these terms is using them WRONG.

They do NOT have full understanding of how the human body works and likely got what they think they know strictly off the internet.
[/quote]

I am seriously curious what problem you have with the terminology. Are you saying that people don’t have genetic, hormonal, and metabolic differences? Why does it bug you when we say some people gain muscle more easily than others? Nobody is disputing that an ectomorph can gain weight, but it will take more effort and it is probably going to take longer.

The very fact that it will take more effort for one guy than for another proves that they have different types of bodies. Sure, the underlying reason may be different (some have less T receptors, others have higher thyroid, etc.) but “ectomorph” is pretty good as a shorthand that most people tend to get.
[/quote]

Inb4 the ensuing shitstorm :wink:

Something else that hasn’t been mentioned is don’t spend hours in the gym. Do what you’ve got to do and with intensity and then get out! I say this because I struggled to put on much weight in my first 6 months of training because I was killing myself in the gym for two hours a night essentially just burning a lot of calories that I needed to recover.

And you definitely don’t look like I pictured you, 170 @ 6’ looked very different in my head

50

[quote]seekonk wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Yes, for the most part, the average person even using these terms is using them WRONG.

They do NOT have full understanding of how the human body works and likely got what they think they know strictly off the internet.
[/quote]

I am seriously curious what problem you have with the terminology. Are you saying that people don’t have genetic, hormonal, and metabolic differences? Why does it bug you when we say some people gain muscle more easily than others? Nobody is disputing that an ectomorph can gain weight, but it will take more effort and it is probably going to take longer.

The very fact that it will take more effort for one guy than for another proves that they have different types of bodies. Sure, the underlying reason may be different (some have less T receptors, others have higher thyroid, etc.) but “ectomorph” is pretty good as a shorthand that most people tend to get.
[/quote]

Dear lord.

No, no one is saying there are not differences. What is being said to you is that even using those three labels ONLY to make that judgment is being done by people WITHOUT degrees in biology or human anatomy. It is a useless oversimplified look at body types that has been OVER- and MIS-used for years by lay people.

What body type am I?

What body type was I?

Why would what I was matter to what I am now?

You eat according to your progress. There is no special way for an “ectomorph” to train over an “endo-morph”. If you need more food, eat more food.

51

This thread really should have ended with “JUST EAT MORE”. I’m guessing if you just added 500 more calories sometime around your workouts, you would start to see remarkable results withing the first few weeks…It’s that simple! 1-2 cups of oats in those shakes should do the trick.

52

[quote]seekonk wrote:

[quote]Consul wrote:

[quote]seekonk wrote:
It is not just frames. Some people have higher thyroid, or lower testosterone, to mention just two of many possible reasons they may be thinner and have a harder time gaining mass. You can call it something else if you want but it comes down to the same thing as being an ectomorph. [/quote]

If you have high levels of thyroid hormone or low levels of testosterone, you have medical conditions that need treatment. This is nothing like what people call an ectomorph, …[/quote]

Of course it is - people can have widely different genetic setpoints for these hormones, and on top of that widely different variations in receptor densities, still within the normal healthy ranges, that sure don’t warrant medical treatment but will make big differences in how the body responds to food and exercise.
[/quote]

…Look, if someone has real thyroid issues, they need medication. No two people are walking around with the exact same hormonal profile…and relating “hyperthyroidism” to “being an ectomorph” is just sloppy pseudoscience. Stop doing that before some newb actually thinks you know what you are talking about.

There are some HUGE dudes with faster metabolisms. They learned to eat more to compensate. They didn’t sit there and cry for years about how much of an “ecto-morph” they are.

Some of these pro’s use thyroid hormones to diet for contests. Having a fast metabolism is actually WANTED in bodybuilding.

53

Thanks everyone, the feedback is much appreciated. Didn’t mean to spark a major debate, just pointing out that I eat and train similarly to some friends, but they have to work to shed weight and I have to work to stay ‘up’ in the 160s. Not impossible for either of us to change…

I like the 5/3/1 BBB template on Chris’s first post, its a slight change from the 5/3/1 manual I have (had assistance bench on bench day etc). Diet is going to be a challenge since it can get to eating to nausea, but I’ll make smart additions. I’m thin but don’t feel scrawny, so ill work for progress, not revolution… Thx again.

54

[quote]ns182 wrote:
Typical diet: 7AM Smoothie (1/3 veg, 2/3 fruit, whole milk, oats/barley/flax, yog, edamame, beans, rice, green tea, partial scoop of Beverly?s UMP?32oz, ~600cal)
10AM post workout shake (12oz whole milk, partial scoop of Beverly MP-trying not to spend all a teachers salary on protein) & cottage cheese
noon lunch- chef salad, veggies, fruit, milk (school lunch)
4PM tortillas & bean dip snack;
5pm- pork steak, baked potato, broccoli & cheese
8PM- 18oz whole milk w/ UMP.[/quote]

This is your typical daily diet and you actually are wondering why you aren’t gaining weight?

Replace Meals 1, 2 & 3 with Meal 4 and you’d be set.

55

I was so skinny when I started lifting, I ate everything that wasn’t nailed down. I ate so much and so often that my digestive system felt bad all the time. But I gained 30 lbs within a couple of months… and ONLY THEN DID I LOOK NORMAL!

It took another 3 years and 20 lbs gained to look muscular, but I was STILL small.

56

[quote]lemony2j wrote:
And you definitely don’t look like I pictured you, 170 @ 6’ looked very different in my head[/quote]

LOL, agreed, turns out the OP looks better than all of the rest of us.

He should be the one giving advice. :slight_smile:

57

Thanks for the compliment, but that pic I was still mid 160s (also hadn’t been in the gym for 6 months due to newborn, only KBs @ home). I haven’t seen 170 since my 20s… :wink:

Perhaps my title miscommunicated my intention. I realize my diet is not for bulking. Its for general nutrition, and I hope the nutrient dense food keeps me healthy enough to rock climb & kayak w/ my grandkids in 30 years. I’m not sure if pork steaks for every meal, while I’d surely enjoy it, would leave me in that great of shape.

So I tried to mention that I’m tweaking my diet, but largely wanted to know opinions about workout plans to maximize within current circumstances… 5/3/1 vs. 10/8/6/15, split vs. full body, etc. I’ve gotten a lot of great info from these replies, so thank you to all (I tried the oats w/ the choc protien today, much better!). Anyways, sorry to give the impression that I wanted to add 20 pounds, I’m just trying to maximize my workouts & not be counter-productive.
Thx.

58

Just taking an extra look at nutrition and realized the oat groats I use ($1.29/lb) have 360cal, 56g carbs and 14g protein for 1/2 cup. That’s $.018/g protein. That’s a little over double compared to Quaker instant oats!

59

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]seekonk wrote:

[quote]Consul wrote:

[quote]seekonk wrote:
It is not just frames. Some people have higher thyroid, or lower testosterone, to mention just two of many possible reasons they may be thinner and have a harder time gaining mass. You can call it something else if you want but it comes down to the same thing as being an ectomorph. [/quote]

If you have high levels of thyroid hormone or low levels of testosterone, you have medical conditions that need treatment. This is nothing like what people call an ectomorph, …[/quote]

Of course it is - people can have widely different genetic setpoints for these hormones, and on top of that widely different variations in receptor densities, still within the normal healthy ranges, that sure don’t warrant medical treatment but will make big differences in how the body responds to food and exercise.
[/quote]

…Look, if someone has real thyroid issues, they need medication. No two people are walking around with the exact same hormonal profile…and relating “hyperthyroidism” to “being an ectomorph” is just sloppy pseudoscience. Stop doing that before some newb actually thinks you know what you are talking about.

There are some HUGE dudes with faster metabolisms. They learned to eat more to compensate. They didn’t sit there and cry for years about how much of an “ecto-morph” they are.

Some of these pro’s use thyroid hormones to diet for contests. Having a fast metabolism is actually WANTED in bodybuilding.[/quote]

Exactly.

60

I always though ectomorph was more about your shape. For example, I have a narrow bone structure so narrow shoulders and hips makes me an ectomorph. Guys with wider shoulders than their hips are mesomorphs, and guys with wider hips are endomorphs.

That’s how I’ve always understood it anyway. Never really applied it to hormonal differences. If you have narrow shoulders though, you’ll need to give your shoulders more attention than someone with a big, broad shoulder structure, and if you have wide hips you’l need to keep fat down otherwise you’ll look like a woman. Isn’t that training for somatypes? Don’t we all train for our somatype?