T Nation

Eccentrics, Stretch Reflex/Touch&go, Form

Eccentric phase
On the eccentric phase, advise varies… a lot. I’ve read Waterbury, recommending a fast, but controlled eccentric. Thibaudeau seems to recommend 2/3 second eccentrics and upwards. Similarly, DC Training seems to promote slow eccentrics. In another thread, I read that they should be saved for single-joint movements (http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding/slow_negatives_when_and_why).

Rest-pause vs using the stretch reflex (touch&go)
I’m planning to do Thibs’ get jacked programme so I won’t have to think about this for a while, but that’s no excuse to remain ignorant. What’s everyone’s personal take on this, and why? In the past, I did most of my exercises with fast eccentrics (the weights didn’t plummet down, but I brought them down as quickly as I could), and never paused at the bottom. Now, I slowed down the eccentric phase (squats, bench) and started pausing between reps (deadlifts), and my poundages dropped considerably (±25 pounds per lift). Is this a good or a bad thing from a bodybuilding perspective?

Form
The reason is, I keep reading: “who do you think is better off, the weenie doing strict rows with X pounds, or a guy doing kroc rows with double that weight?” So I’m kinda lost between doing everything “right” and just shooting for higher weights. This applies to rowing, too… Is it OK to cheat the weight up with my lower back in the last ±5 cm? Or not?

Looking forward to everyone’s input.

There is a time and a place for cheating, and the same goes for speed on eccentrics.

If your goal is overal strength and size, then you probably should lower the weight under control, meaning that at any moment during the ROM you could stop.

The main reason for this IMO is progression. If your previous 10rm bench press was 185, and you did all the reps with controlled eccentrics like this, then I would have no doubt in my mind youd be able to go to 195 and start building from there. With this increase in weight you have two options.

  1. Bang out the reps with faster eccentrics, and as you progress, slow them down until you are ready to increase the weight again.

  2. Start right away with controlled eccentrics, and you may only get 5-6 reps in the beginning and keep building until you hit 10 again.

The whole point is, you have to have some form of consistency, because we all know that if you can hop up and do 20 kipping pullups, that doesn’t mean you can do 20 strict pullups.

As for form and cheating, I would probably just use it to bust through plateus on certain exercises.

Upping for the monday crowd.

[quote]dankid wrote:
There is a time and a place for cheating, and the same goes for speed on eccentrics.

The whole point is, you have to have some form of consistency, because we all know that if you can hop up and do 20 kipping pullups, that doesn’t mean you can do 20 strict pullups.

[/quote]

It’s the consistency that matters most.
Progression Indicators must be ‘Apples to Apples’ to measure improvement. Anything else is guessing.

Really? So for BB and strength purposes there is no actual reason to go slow on eccentrics, etc?

[quote]G87 wrote:
Really? So for BB and strength purposes there is no actual reason to go slow on eccentrics, etc?[/quote]

Of course there is. Study show that the majority of muscle fibre damage occurs during eccentric loading, concentric only loading does very little if at all for hypertrephy, eccentric loading can lead to hyperplasia, increased anabolic hormone output and so on. Why drop the weight with no or virry little loading?

[quote]hotdog.350 wrote:
G87 wrote:
Really? So for BB and strength purposes there is no actual reason to go slow on eccentrics, etc?

Of course there is. Study show that the majority of muscle fibre damage occurs during eccentric loading, concentric only loading does very little if at all for hypertrephy, eccentric loading can lead to hyperplasia, increased anabolic hormone output and so on. Why drop the weight with no or virry little loading?
[/quote]

Well, this is the kind of thing I want to hear. Thank you for the input.

[quote]hotdog.350 wrote:
concentric only loading does very little if at all for hypertrephy,
[/quote]

Better keep your head down…incoming grenades.

[quote]G87 wrote:
Really? So for BB and strength purposes there is no actual reason to go slow on eccentrics, etc?[/quote]

?? - Nobody has said that - ??
There is a time, place, & purpose for many methods of execution!!

[quote]giterdone wrote:
hotdog.350 wrote:
concentric only loading does very little if at all for hypertrephy,

Better keep your head down…incoming grenades.[/quote]

LOL…It’s more fun to pick-up heavy things than to put them down!!!

^Ain’t that the truth…

[quote]hotdog.350 wrote:
eccentric loading can lead to hyperplasia, [/quote]

In human muscle cells… Pray tell how…