T Nation

Eccentric-less or Less Eccentric Training

I read with interest the Pendlay secret. http://www.T-Nation.com/training/too-much-muscle
It got me thinking. I don’t want to nor do I think it is wise to completely eliminate the eccentric, but is a controlled negative necessary on every rep? If you were only to use a slow-ish eccentric on the last rep or 2 of the last say 2 sets…
I just want to train more frequently but I want to fully recover. At what point is the damage going to be more than it’s worth, where super compensation doesn’t happen to any greater amount but it takes longer to recover?

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
I read with interest the Pendlay secret. http://www.T-Nation.com/training/too-much-muscle
It got me thinking. I don’t want to nor do I think it is wise to completely eliminate the eccentric, but is a controlled negative necessary on every rep? If you were only to use a slow-ish eccentric on the last rep or 2 of the last say 2 sets…
I just want to train more frequently but I want to fully recover. At what point is the damage going to be more than it’s worth, where super compensation doesn’t happen to any greater amount but it takes longer to recover?[/quote]

  • You are overthinking this.
  • Anything short of supramaximal eccentric work will not produce all that much damage/DOMS after you get used to high frequency strength training (and perhaps increased ROM)
  • Of course, if you are really pushing shit (which I’m sure you are not), there will be a deep muscle soreness that never really goes away.

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
I read with interest the Pendlay secret. http://www.T-Nation.com/training/too-much-muscle
It got me thinking. I don’t want to nor do I think it is wise to completely eliminate the eccentric, but is a controlled negative necessary on every rep? If you were only to use a slow-ish eccentric on the last rep or 2 of the last say 2 sets…
I just want to train more frequently but I want to fully recover. At what point is the damage going to be more than it’s worth, where super compensation doesn’t happen to any greater amount but it takes longer to recover?[/quote]

  • You are overthinking this.
  • Anything short of supramaximal eccentric work will not produce all that much damage/DOMS after you get used to high frequency strength training (and perhaps increased ROM)
  • Of course, if you are really pushing shit (which I’m sure you are not), there will be a deep muscle soreness that never really goes away.[/quote]
    “which I’m sure you are not”… So well written.

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
I read with interest the Pendlay secret. http://www.T-Nation.com/training/too-much-muscle
It got me thinking. I don’t want to nor do I think it is wise to completely eliminate the eccentric, but is a controlled negative necessary on every rep? If you were only to use a slow-ish eccentric on the last rep or 2 of the last say 2 sets…
I just want to train more frequently but I want to fully recover. At what point is the damage going to be more than it’s worth, where super compensation doesn’t happen to any greater amount but it takes longer to recover?[/quote]

  • You are overthinking this.
  • Anything short of supramaximal eccentric work will not produce all that much damage/DOMS after you get used to high frequency strength training (and perhaps increased ROM)
  • Of course, if you are really pushing shit (which I’m sure you are not), there will be a deep muscle soreness that never really goes away.[/quote]

“which I’m sure you are not”… So well written. [/quote]

You are? Cool. Very few people are up to that. What is your plan?

I’m old and don’t recover as well or as quickly as I used to. My plan is to up frequency sensibly, creating more supercompensation sessions per major muscle group per week, per month, …

I don’t care for higher rep sets and don’t really like long drawn out training sessions as I don’t believe they really are worth the extra time spent. I also don’t care for the lift huge amounts of weight for the sake of moving the heaviest possible weight.

I like splitting things in movements as opposed to parts.

I still question which ingredient is most important in hypertrophy. Frequency, time under tension, total time under tension, Mechanical tension, Metabolic stress, Muscle damage. Anyone can cause a shit ton of muscle damage. Per session, it only seems logical that there is an upper limit to the amount of gains can be made from session to session. Further, the amount of stimulus it takes to get there, any more work done is wasted effort. If I do a workout and only get 40% of the improvement that I could maximally get, but fully recover sooner and can do 3 sessions in a time frame as opposed to 1, which is better in the long run?
Is it better to focus on one aspect for a while, then switch to another focus? Or is it better to hit a movement pattern with maximal load, like 2 or three cluster sets of 5x2/3 to take care of the maximal tension aspect, with a minor build up fatigue metabolites and then an extended set or two of the magical 30 to 50 seconds under tension.

I know that you can do a ton of the wrong stuff and still improve. My problem with some of the training articles that inspire thought are nearly the same as others and only moderately different.
Is it wrong to want training efficiency when the greater of my training years are in my rear view mirror?

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
I read with interest the Pendlay secret. http://www.T-Nation.com/training/too-much-muscle
It got me thinking. I don’t want to nor do I think it is wise to completely eliminate the eccentric, but is a controlled negative necessary on every rep? If you were only to use a slow-ish eccentric on the last rep or 2 of the last say 2 sets…
I just want to train more frequently but I want to fully recover. At what point is the damage going to be more than it’s worth, where super compensation doesn’t happen to any greater amount but it takes longer to recover? [/quote]

With some lifts you just have to control the eccentric so you don’t get hurt. you can’t just unrack the bar and drop on your chest then try to bench it. so the way i see it, there’s not many lifts that you can really eliminate the eccentric from: deadlifts, rows (ie pendlay rows), chins, you could get creative with some others maybe

Arthur Jones did a lot of negative only work. Might be something to read.

Do not concentrate on the amount of weight Casey gained. That has been debated and refuted to death. Just what he says about negative exercises and the conclusion.

An old work out I read from Ironman YEARS ago was a BB split (3–6 days, whichever tickle your fancy), do one regular set (let’s say BB curls for fun), 3-5 sets, 10-15 reps. Your second movement would be a “shocker” movement (pyramides, squeeze reps, 21’s, up and down the rack, etc). There you go, biceps down for the day. The next time you hit biceps, you would choose a different exercise (hammer curls) and repeat. Have 3-4 different exercise and alternate.

Now, again, this is not a work out for debate or argument. You don’t like it, that’s fine. What I’m getting at is to look at your work outs from different angles. I was (probably still am) where you are. Not trying to find a “better” way, but a way that go in line with my mentality I don’t want to spend hours in a gym to move ungodly weights. I want to maximize my time and leave my ego in the toilet. I’m old enough to understand that more is not better and you make better gain being healthy and understanding your limitation then hurting yourself every 6 months. Intensity is another that needs looking at. I now know when I give too little or too much.

My two favourites are Chad’s TBT and 5/3/1. it just gives me what I want and keeps me going in the gym. Plazma has also done wonders.

And to answer your question on which is best? Well, it is which is best for you! Sorry, you will have to find that out for yourself. Cop out answer, sorry, but it’s true.

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:
With some lifts you just have to control the eccentric so you don’t get hurt. you can’t just unrack the bar and drop on your chest then try to bench it. so the way i see it, there’s not many lifts that you can really eliminate the eccentric from: deadlifts, rows (ie pendlay rows), chins, you could get creative with some others maybe
[/quote]

I actually suspend the bar with chains, start from the bottom portion of the bench, and let the bar crash back down on the chains at the end of the rep when I train benching, making it eccentricless. You can utilize this with a LOT of movements if you get creative.

EDIT: Here is a video

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:
With some lifts you just have to control the eccentric so you don’t get hurt. you can’t just unrack the bar and drop on your chest then try to bench it. so the way i see it, there’s not many lifts that you can really eliminate the eccentric from: deadlifts, rows (ie pendlay rows), chins, you could get creative with some others maybe
[/quote]

I actually suspend the bar with chains, start from the bottom portion of the bench, and let the bar crash back down on the chains at the end of the rep when I train benching, making it eccentricless. You can utilize this with a LOT of movements if you get creative.

EDIT: Here is a video

I hadn’t thought of this. What chains did you buy to ensure that links never break?

Those are just some 3/8 chains with a thick carabiner. You could also use tow straps if you were so inclined. Rated to tow a 4000lb vehicle, so you know they’ll handle your weights just fine.

I got my inspiration for this from westside. They did a ton of chain suspended work, and it’s honestly just plain awesome. Chain suspended squats really let you go all out with no fear of the aftermath.

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
I read with interest the Pendlay secret. http://www.T-Nation.com/training/too-much-muscle
It got me thinking. I don’t want to nor do I think it is wise to completely eliminate the eccentric, but is a controlled negative necessary on every rep? If you were only to use a slow-ish eccentric on the last rep or 2 of the last say 2 sets…
I just want to train more frequently but I want to fully recover. At what point is the damage going to be more than it’s worth, where super compensation doesn’t happen to any greater amount but it takes longer to recover? [/quote]

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
I’m old and don’t recover as well or as quickly as I used to. My plan is to up frequency sensibly, creating more supercompensation sessions per major muscle group per week, per month, …
[/quote]

I know a guy who avoids eccentric work like the plague. He’ll cite - almost verbatim - articles about cyclists, Oly lifters, the same Pendlay link you mentioned, and so on. I don’t particularly like this chump nor am I impressed with the mediocre physique he created (using gear, no less). So I wanted some ammo for the next time he and I had this discussion.

This led to a conversation with my Coach which was pretty damn eye opening.

Based on what he told me, I can safely and confidently extrapolate that:

  1. The chump in question is headed for injury and DYEL status

  2. Completely eliminating the eccentric - FOR YOU AND YOUR SPECIFIC NEEDS - would be a fool’s gambit.

[quote]MinotaurXXX wrote:

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
I read with interest the Pendlay secret. http://www.T-Nation.com/training/too-much-muscle
It got me thinking. I don’t want to nor do I think it is wise to completely eliminate the eccentric, but is a controlled negative necessary on every rep? If you were only to use a slow-ish eccentric on the last rep or 2 of the last say 2 sets…
I just want to train more frequently but I want to fully recover. At what point is the damage going to be more than it’s worth, where super compensation doesn’t happen to any greater amount but it takes longer to recover? [/quote]

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
I’m old and don’t recover as well or as quickly as I used to. My plan is to up frequency sensibly, creating more supercompensation sessions per major muscle group per week, per month, …
[/quote]

I know a guy who avoids eccentric work like the plague. He’ll cite - almost verbatim - articles about cyclists, Oly lifters, the same Pendlay link you mentioned, and so on. I don’t particularly like this chump nor am I impressed with the mediocre physique he created (using gear, no less). So I wanted some ammo for the next time he and I had this discussion.

This led to a conversation with my Coach which was pretty damn eye opening.

Based on what he told me, I can safely and confidently extrapolate that:

  1. The chump in question is headed for injury and DYEL status

  2. Completely eliminating the eccentric - FOR YOU AND YOUR SPECIFIC NEEDS - would be a fool’s gambit.
    [/quote]
    Gear and no gains? Damn

Thibs has written loads about eccentric-less work. It’s just another tool in the box, and has its place just like everything else.

Sled drags are eccentric-less training and they’re badass!

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
Gear and no gains? Damn[/quote]

As always, it boils down to fundamentals. Take some guy with lousy programming, little to no discipline, and childish desire to take shortcuts, and you end up with clowns like this.

These guys beg the question: Hey bro, DYEJ (juice)?

Do you remember that MTV special waaaay back about several young guys who made the decision to use? Each one of them really didn’t look much better afterwards and what little results they did get could’ve been achieved natty had they put in a more honest effort.

edit: found it on youtube

Lol nice one. I’m stealing that.

To find any negative colleget literature on eccentric focused training, that douchy guy you know will have to dig pretty deep. It seems to be a topic that physiologists like to keep studying. Why would he not want to use the strongest muscle phase to his advantage?

considering this is a 3 year old thread- you are likely not going to get a response

I don’t care

Concentric Only Training

One of the primary benefits of concentric only training is that you recovery faster. That means you can train the same exercise more often.

Muscle Protein Synthesis is produced with training. Muscle Protein Synthesis trigger an anabolic response; promoting hypertrophy and strength.

Thus, more frequent training session equate to more Muscle Protein Synthesis; an increase in size and strength.

Concentric Only Training Session can be an effective training tool when correctly implemented, as per Dr John Rustin…

https://drjohnrusin.com/concentric-only-training/.

  1. Increasing frequency
    2)Increasing volume
    3)Increase intensity

"Cyclist, Olympic Lifters, Deadlifting And Sleds"

As you mentioned in post #12

Cyclist: Preform ONLY concentric work. They have some of the best legs in sports.

Olympic Lifts/Movements: There is some eccentric loading for Olympic Lifters. However, not as much since Olympic Lifters since there is no eccentric performed from the overhead lockout of a Jerk or Snatch; the lifter guided the falling bar to the floor.

The limited amount of eccentric training of the Olympic Lifts appears to be one of the reason, Olympic Lifter area able to train with more frequency.

Deadlifting: This is predominately a Concentric Movement. Upon lockout at the top, the bar is lowered in more of a “Guided Free Fall”, as with Olympic Lifts.

As with the Olympic Lifts, the Deadlift is a hard lift to slowly lower to the ground.

Sled Drags/Pushes: This is primarily a Concentric Only Movement.

Fast-ish Eccentrics

Research shows that performing a “Fast-ish” Eccentric is more effective at triggering hypertrophy and strength.

"…eccentric-only training, lowering slowly is less effective for gaining strength, because you force yourself to use lighter weights, simply so that you can lower them more slowly. If you lowered more quickly, you could use a much heavier weight (just don’t use a weight that is so heavy you can’t control it, and end up dropping it).

"Faster (i.e. heavier) eccentric-only training is indeed a much better training method than slower (i.e. lighter) eccentric-only training, if your goal is primarily to get stronger (Paddon-Jones et al. 2001; Farthing & Chilibeck, 2003a; 2003b; Shepstone et al. 2005).–

"…greater gains in muscle thickness (measured by ultrasound), they ascribed these greater gains in strength to larger amounts of hypertrophy caused by the higher mechanical loading. These findings are in line with those reported by Paddon-Jones et al. (2001), who found larger gains in type II fiber proportion after fast eccentric training, compared to slow eccentric training.

"…taking 1 second to perform elbow flexion through 180 degrees (at 180 degrees/s) produces superior strength gains compared with taking around 6 seconds to move through the same range of motion

Active Recovery

Active Recovery means using lighter loads following a heavy training session with the same muscle, not necessarily the same exercises.

Active Recovery increases blood flow to the muscles. The circulatory system delivers nutrient to the muscle and eliminate Metabolites (Garbage). This helps you recovery faster.

This is one of the benefits of Concentric Only Training such as Cycling or Sled Work after a hard heavy Heavy Squat Training Session; you recovery faster.

Eccentric-Concentric and Eccentric Only Training

Let me stated that I am NOT advocating ONLY Concentric Training.

The key to increasing strength and/or size is to employ each of these method in to your training program at times.

Old Thread, Same Question

The thread is old but this question and misinformation on Concentric Only and the misinformation continue to be perpetuated on Slow Eccentrics continues to passed on.

My objective is correct some of the myths.

Kenny Croxdale