T Nation

ECA or Hot Rox on SNRI

A friend of mine is going on Effexor 75mg to aid in mild depression. He is currently taking ECA for fat loss purposes but was thinking about Hot Rox. However, with the Seratonin connection with Hot Rox, he is concerned about messing up the brain chemistry. So, I guess the bottom line, what is the “safer” fat loss when on an SNRI such as Effexor?

Also, is there any natural dopomine agonist to aid the loss of libido when on a SNRI (or SSRI?)?

Start low and work your way up with either choice.

The only natural source I could think of to increase dopamine is mucuna pruriens standardized for l-dopa.
Bromocriptine is a dopamine agonist and would probably also help with fat loss. Prescription though.

It is my understanding that the Effexor increases Serratonin production, which in tern surpresses libidio. It is my understanding that an dompomine agonist will mitigate this effect, so does anyone have any insight as to if this is true?

The supps I found that contain mucuna pruriens is the horney goat weed product from Pinnacle which contains

Horny Goat Weed (Epimedium Grandiflorum) Standardized 10% Icariin 500 mg

Maca Pure (Lepidium Meyenii) Standardized To Contain 0.6% Macamides And Macaenes 250 mg

Mucuna Pruriens Standardized 15% L-Dopa (L-Dihydroxyphenylalanine) 33.3 mg

Polypodium Vulgare Standardized 8% 20-EDC (20-Hydroxyecdysone) 25 mg

or the Alpha Dopa Poppers from Pinnacle which contains: Macuna pruriens (Dopa Bean) 666.6 mg standardized to 15% L-Dopa (L-Dihydroxyphenylalanine)Alpha GPC (Alpha-Glycerylphosphorylcholine) 100 mg Bacopa Monniera Extract 50 mg standardized to 20% Bacosides A&B)

Anyone have any experiences with these?

From my experience and knowledge of antidepressants I can tell you that people are VASTLY differentiated in how they respond to an SSRI. I cannot reccommend using anything in conjunction with an SSRI that increases serotonin. An increase in Seroronin beyond that which is acceptable for your brain will cause the following (quite horrible) effects: Loss of libido, sensitivity to light, dialated pupils, insomnia,inability to orgasm, minor hallucinations in dark areas, “dopey” feeling or “duh” feeling, lack of energy, unnatural brief episodes of euphoria, and in worst cases, serotonin syndrome, which requires medical treatment and can cause death VERY quickly. I would try something that has significantly less effect on serotonin such as Wellbutrin. Wellbutrin acts by inhibiting the uptake of dopamine and norepinephrine. As such, Wellbutrin can cause anxiety attacks in people prone to them and siezures in people with previous head trauma and siezure related symptoms in high doses, ie, above 300mg per day. Take no 5-htp but l-dopa is quite safe in moderate dosages. Also, don’t use or abuse any psychostimulants such as Didrex, Phentermine, d-amphetamine, d-methamphetamine (duh), d-phenylalanine (redily converts to Phenylethylamine), ect you get the point. If you have any questions about anything specific ask in the post or preferrably PM, unless of course, you hate me and think I’m a complete idiot. I study Neuroscience and Business @ Pitt FYI. Hope all this helps! ~Porchpooch

ephedrine and ssris give you a mild “roll”, Ive noticed. and, it is safe to take wellbutrin with prozac… talk to your doctor about this one THOROUGHLY thoug

Dawg, I am not looking for something that increases serratonin over the Effexor. I am looking for something to counter-act the lowering of the Dopamine. It is my understanding that Effexor will lower Dopamine as that is why you lose libido and sweat more (two huge side effects). So, I was wondering if the natural dopamine agonists like Mucuna pruniens would work to counteract the problems with Effexor.

Effexor is a piece of shit in my opinion. Raising norepinephrine is certainly not going to help your anxiety one bit. Serotonin is a double edged sword, in some cases of anxiety, serotonin is the PROBLEM, not the solution. In many anxiety related studies, patients who report anxiety have too much serotonin, and epinephrine. Turning norepinephrine, which effexor increases, into epinephrine is a 1 step process. SO, IF YOU WANT MY RECOMMENDATION YOU CAN FOLLOW THE PERSCRIPTION PLAN I USE ON MYSELF AND FIND QUITE EFFECTIVE: 150mg Wellbutrin (a Selective Dopamine Reuptake Inhibitor), 15mg Buspar (normalizes serotonin levels). I find that this combo gives a one two punch to anxiety and depression and increases my sex drive beyond what was already bonobo ish. You may also take a MAXIMUM of .50mg alprazolam during the day when your anxiety is typically the worst. Don’t take it if you can just deal with it though. Unless you have supreme willpower you WILL abuse your alprazolam. If the doctor gives you a perscription for 30, 1mg pills, tell him to reduce it to 30 .25mg pills. Alprazolam withdrawl lasts several months and is quite unpleasant I have been told. Some say worse than heroin. So be careful. AND TO ANSWER YOUR ORIGINAL QUESTION: if you stick to effexor you can’t take alot of meds and you can’t take anything with 5-htp. But if you take what I described virtually nothing can interact with it. Well, stimulants become more potent and certainly will cause insomnia due to tons of dopamine floating around from your caffiene ephedrine pre workout binge or whatever. Still, I think it will be ok to take Hot-Rox despite the aforementioned info. Hot-Rox users don’t report gitters or any appreciable psychoactive properties. You may find it hard to get your dumb ass doctor to give you all this stuff. Doctors are extremely arrogant and usually assume that you don’t know jack fuck about what you are coming in to treat. They absolutely HATE it when you tell them info like what I just gave you, it makes them feel inferior to their patients I think. You just have to have a “I won’t take no for an answer” attitude. Well, Doc T from the T-forums is obviously a good doc, you should go to him hehehe. Anyways, PM me or post if u got questions…

hey dawg…i second the buspar for anxiety. altho i’m taking Lexapro 10mg and half a tab of Buspar (sensitive stomach) it’s really helped with anxiety levels. altho from what i’ve read about SSRI’s and Hot Rox i’ve opted not to take hot rox just b/c i don’t want any weird shit happening.

my doc prescribed Xanax (alprazolam) also but i didn’t get the prescript. filled…i’ve had that stuff before and honestly i’d rather not be tempted at all. it’s highly addictive.

i may just go with Labrada’s Charge w/out ephedrine or just go without a fat burner.

oh and btw…my sex drive is GONE (and it was pretty damn fierce to begin with). it’s irritating on a level but…i dont think there’s much i can do about it until i’m off these meds. the buspar hasn’t helped the problem either. :stuck_out_tongue: oh well.

Kc, have you tried, Horny Goat Weed (Epimedium Grandiflorum), Maca Pure (Lepidium Meyenii),Mucuna Pruriens,polypodium Vulgare)?

Getting back to the original secondary question, I thought that a dopomine agonist may kick the libidio up a notch. Mucuna Pruriens is supposed to be a dopamine agonist.

Talen: Get the fuck off Lexapro, Mr. SSRI kills Mr. Sex drive; as in shoots him in the face, walks up to his dying body and pumps bullet after bullet after bullet into his once mighty frame until there is nothing left in the clip, but Mr. SSRI is SO CRAZY that he compulsively keeps pulling the trigger only hearing “click, click, click, click, click.” Look man, natural dopamine precursers and agonists are going to do absolutely jack shit. It is the fact that you have too little dopamine and the Dopamine you do have is not being released from the precynaptic terminal into the cleft for transmission. There are two guarrenteed ways to solve this problem: 1. Take Wellbutrin. As stated, it is a Selective DOPAMINE reuptake inhibitor or SDRI. 2. Take a low dose of Selegeline in conjunction with 5mg d-Methampnetamine (desoxyn) or d-Amphetamine. ANY ONE OF THOSE SOLUTIONS SHOULD INCREASE SEX DRIVE. This is all the information you really need to know but if you want some very interesting information on those drugs you can keep reading this excessively long post. Drug information: 1. “Selegeline” is an MAOI-B, which means it will inhibit the actions of mono-amnine Oxidase. MAO is what is responsible for de-aminization of various neurotransmitters such as dopamine, which renders them useless. Notice as well the name of the drugs d-amphetAMINE and d-MethamphetAMINE; thier breakdown will also be blocked significantly. This allows for a non-addictive, long lasting doseage. 2. “d-Amphetamine” is a synthetic drug discovered when scientists were trying to synthesize epinephrine. It works by passing through the blood brain barrier at which point it finds its way into your neurons. Not only does d-Amphetamine encourage the release of dopamine, but also it encourages the dopaminergic neurons to produce more dopamine. It is for the above reason that Amphetamine is more difficult to get addicted to over cocaine, which releases dopamine but encourages no dopaminergic neurons to produce more, leaving them with a crash that makes them want nothing but more cocaine. The substantia nigra has the highest percentage of DA (Dopamine) neurons which is why people with Parkinson’s disease have extraordinary damage to this area of the brain.