T Nation

Eating Like Crazy, Sound Advice?

Okay, ever since discovering this site a couple of weeks ago I have been religiously trying to eat more (not as easy as it seems)

One needs to EAT, and gaining a bit of fat is inevitable, its all worth it in order to gain muscle mass.

However, I stumbled upon this in the Gregg Avedon site (don’t ask me how i got there)

start quote

Can you build muscle while maintaining a lean body?

Absolutely! People often think that the best way to achieve the ultimate body, is to bulk up first by adding excess weight, then chisel it down with a strict diet. Let me tell you, if I did that, I wouldn’t be working in this industry!

Eating like it’s Armageddon will add needless fat cells to your body. Did you know that when you form new fat cells, they don’t ever disappear? Professor of Exercise and Sports Science at the University of Florida, Patrick J. Bird, Ph.D. writes, “Fat cells are very influential in weight control. That’s because they’re permanent ? fat cells don’t disappear when the weight is lost. They simply shrink. And the more fat cells, the more storage area, and the easier it is to gain weight.” Now this concept holds true for people that are very overweight, but it’s still not a good idea to turn to a lifestyle of gluttony because you want to get big in the gym.

end quote

Any comments or opinions regarding this?

[quote]loctite_zexel wrote:

Any comments or opinions regarding this?[/quote]

Yes. Fat cells don’t just pop up easily. You are more prone to gain fat cells as a child (one strong reason to avoid childhood obesity) or as an adult if you become extremely obese. Otherwise, you are pretty much stuck with the same number of fat cells throughout life. They simply inflate and deflate with fat…because that is all they are, storage recepticles for adipose. Think of them like plastic trash bags just waiting to be filled up. As long as they are empty, the space they take up is microscopic.

As far as his comment about gaining lean mass, I doubt anyone on this board will deny that some lean mass can be built while staying lean. Notice the word “some”. If your goal is to make “significant” progress without taking 5-10 years to gain 10lbs of lean body mass, you accept that some fat gain is inevitable. The contradictions to this statement would of course be anabolics use.

Personally, I have no doubt that I would be much smaller if I had been that paranoid to gain any body fat at all. I started eating and training like the larger guys on the football team in college. They were the ones getting stronger in the weight room and the ones adding the most muscle. They were also not that consumed with remaining ridiculously lean year round, even though they did care how they looked for the most part.

[quote]loctite_zexel wrote:
Eating like it’s Armageddon will add needless fat cells to your body. Did you know that when you form new fat cells, they don’t ever disappear? [/quote]

Also, just to point out the scare tactic used here as if eating more results in immediate fat cell creation, from: http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/docs/2004/112-6/EHP112pa344PDF.PDF

[quote]. ?Humans
with childhood obesity as
well as infants born to
mothers with gestational
diabetes have adipocyte
hyperplasia, which predisposes
them to adult obesity
and the metabolic syndrome
[characterized by
metabolic risk factors such
as excessive abdominal fat,
blood fat disorders, and
insulin resistance],? says
Paul Cooke, a professor of reproductive
biology at the University of Illinois at
Urbana?Champaign.
[/quote]

That article also has decent info on the roles of estrogen in fat cell creation, espcially during childhood.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
loctite_zexel wrote:

Any comments or opinions regarding this?

Yes. Fat cells don’t just pop up easily. You are more prone to gain fat cells as a child (one strong reason to avoid childhood obesity) or as an adult if you become extremely obese. Otherwise, you are pretty much stuck with the same number of fat cells throughout life. They simply inflate and deflate with fat…because that is all they are, storage recepticles for adipose. Think of them like plastic trash bags just waiting to be filled up. As long as they are empty, the space they take up is microscopic.

[/quote]

That’s what I had always thought too. That barring severe obesity the number of fat cells was basically static once reaching adulthood.

Thanks for the clarification guys. On with the eating then. :slight_smile:

Besides I figure, when you weight like what I do, no matter what your end goals are… some more mass wouldn’t hurt.

Btw… would u guys consider those models they use in men’s health or men’s fitness skinny?

If you read John Berardi’s articles he agrees that you can maintain body fat and grow at the same time. Just eating everything in site is not going to do that for you. If you just want to get big and don’t care if that means being fat then go for it. I think it sucks to not be able to see your muscles.

[quote]loctite_zexel wrote:
Thanks for the clarification guys. On with the eating then. :slight_smile:

Besides I figure, when you weight like what I do, no matter what your end goals are… some more mass wouldn’t hurt.

Btw… would u guys consider those models they use in men’s health or men’s fitness skinny?[/quote]

No, I wouldn’t. While many of those guys are much smaller than pro bodybuilders, they still had to work hard to even reach that size which is one thing I don’t think many understand. I truly believe that some getting into this think that looking like that takes less work or that those models don’t have to lift heavy.

[quote]Todd S. wrote:
If you read John Berardi’s articles he agrees that you can maintain body fat and grow at the same time. Just eating everything in site is not going to do that for you. If you just want to get big and don’t care if that means being fat then go for it. I think it sucks to not be able to see your muscles. [/quote]

So do I, but I also wonder why it has to be made clear each and every time (often over and over in the same thread) that no one is saying to haphazardly eat everything in sight with no regards to where those clories are coming from. I swear, it is like all or nothing with some of you.

I’m not suggesting it has to be all or nothing, just that it seems to me that alot of the people asking what to eat, are thinking they should eat every thing in site in order to grow, I was attempting to point out that you should eat alot but plan what it is your eating.

I’m obviously not on the forum as much as you Prof X. but I know I see people post “Just eat everything you can to grow” I think that is bad advice.

[quote]Todd S. wrote:
I’m not suggesting it has to be all or nothing, just that it seems to me that alot of the people asking what to eat, are thinking they should eat every thing in site in order to grow, I was attempting to point out that you should eat alot but plan what it is your eating.

I’m obviously not on the forum as much as you Prof X. but I know I see people post “Just eat everything you can to grow” I think that is bad advice.

[/quote]

I think it depends on who is asking. If the guy, like some actually are, is 128lbs and anorexic, that may be just what they need to hear.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
No, I wouldn’t. While many of those guys are much smaller than pro bodybuilders, they still had to work hard to even reach that size which is one thing I don’t think many understand. I truly believe that some getting into this think that looking like that takes less work or that those models don’t have to lift heavy.

[/quote]

Ah okay… so if one’s target is to something similar to the size of those guys (and i stress SIMILAR, hehe… its probly gonna be too hard to be as toned as those guys), does one still needs to go through a bulking phase -> eat big, lift big?

(FYI: 5’8.5, 139 lb)

Berardi has a program called Scrawny to Brawny. If you sign up, he gives you COUNTLESS resources for nutritional, supplemental, and training guidelines.
In his FAT LOSS presentation, he shows several case studies where he increased a clients daily caloric intake by several hundered cals, and over the course of a month, the guy gained (I think) 9 lbs lean mass and dropped around the same amount of fat mass.

I am terrified of gaining fat (because I do it too easily) but JB has worked with thousands of clients, and his data seems to show that eating more CLEAN calories (by using his “7 Highly Effective Habits of a nutritional program”) will have you trading noticable amounts of fat for muscle within a month.
I have had MUCH success with a diet posted here a while ago called the Cheater’s Diet, but I tend to put the fat back on within 6-8 months. With Sciencelink, Berardi seems to be laying out a plan to change dietary habits for the rest of your life.
The food is great, actually tastier than most restaraunt food, healthy, guilt free, and you know you are pouring tons of quality calories into your body, and the plan is formulated by the nutritional Zen Master of T-Nation. If you go to his site, he has several options for joining his coaching group. I would recommend it, as many of us spend years ‘sort of’ applying the things we read. This will short circuit a lot of that, and give you your meal plan. No questions asked, just shut up and eat the food. He even gives you a year’s worth of training programming.

That said, I also joined Coach Staley’s coaching group last year. And that was hands down the MOST FUN I have had lifting. And the team is great. Just read the Team Staley giveaway thread on the building a better body forum.

I guess my point is, to a lot of you on these forums who are confused with a lot of contradictory or hard to apply to your life concepts, many of the contribs offer coaching groups that are really reasonable (costing as little as a month’s worth of Biotest supps) and you learn not just how to train or eat for the next four weeks, but how to manage your physique for life.

I think the “eating clean” is going to help keep your fat gain, if any, tolerable. For instance, I have been eating mostly vegetarian for years, and I can eat huge amounts and never be hungry because vegetables simply don’t have all that many calories. I also eat lean meats and not a lot of starches, getting most of my carbs from veggies with a little bread or potato once in a while.

If you stay away from the super high caloric foods and stick to healthy ones, it’s surprising how much you can eat to most people, I think. And all it takes is a small amount of empty calories to push you over the edge into fat land. People tend to vastly underestimate the percentage of good food and of bad food that they are eating.

Remember that old business about muscle eating calories throughout the day. Every extra pound of muscle means slightly higher caloric consumption slowly chipping away at your daily caloric intake to help you lose a little fat.

Personally, I’ve been doing a sort of “Russian Bear” approach to eating the last week to put on mass. I’m eating almost every hour at least a little something, probably twice as many calories as I usually consume. Know what? Strangely enough, my abs are starting to show more, and I’m looking a little more cut in the waist area in general! Lots of protein shakes, salads and veggies and fruits, lean meats, eggs, and also milk. No garbage whatsoever. Still, the last thing I would have expected is to see my ab muscles more clearly.

My guess is the heightened metabolism from eating all the time, and from putting on a little more muscle over the past few weeks, is helping keep the fat down even now that I amped up my calorie intake tremendously. By the way, this effect is happening even though I’m 44, when people often give up on hypertrophy and are scared to death of fat.

have you tried S2B yet or are you suggesting it is an option? I have Gourmet Nutrition and I have to say it doesn’t really help all that much.

My biggest problem is coming up with meals to eat during the day. Without eating the same thing day after day, forever. I also don’t have alot of time in the evening to prepare a fancy meal.

I’d love any suggestions on setting up a good meal plan. Of coarse money is an issue as well, a consultation with Berardi would work the best but I think that costs about $250.

[quote]jodgey wrote:
Berardi has a program called Scrawny to Brawny. If you sign up, he gives you COUNTLESS resources for nutritional, supplemental, and training guidelines.
In his FAT LOSS presentation, he shows several case studies where he increased a clients daily caloric intake by several hundered cals, and over the course of a month, the guy gained (I think) 9 lbs lean mass and dropped around the same amount of fat mass.

I am terrified of gaining fat (because I do it too easily) but JB has worked with thousands of clients, and his data seems to show that eating more CLEAN calories (by using his “7 Highly Effective Habits of a nutritional program”) will have you trading noticable amounts of fat for muscle within a month.
I have had MUCH success with a diet posted here a while ago called the Cheater’s Diet, but I tend to put the fat back on within 6-8 months. With Sciencelink, Berardi seems to be laying out a plan to change dietary habits for the rest of your life.
The food is great, actually tastier than most restaraunt food, healthy, guilt free, and you know you are pouring tons of quality calories into your body, and the plan is formulated by the nutritional Zen Master of T-Nation. If you go to his site, he has several options for joining his coaching group. I would recommend it, as many of us spend years ‘sort of’ applying the things we read. This will short circuit a lot of that, and give you your meal plan. No questions asked, just shut up and eat the food. He even gives you a year’s worth of training programming.

That said, I also joined Coach Staley’s coaching group last year. And that was hands down the MOST FUN I have had lifting. And the team is great. Just read the Team Staley giveaway thread on the building a better body forum.

I guess my point is, to a lot of you on these forums who are confused with a lot of contradictory or hard to apply to your life concepts, many of the contribs offer coaching groups that are really reasonable (costing as little as a month’s worth of Biotest supps) and you learn not just how to train or eat for the next four weeks, but how to manage your physique for life. [/quote]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
loctite_zexel wrote:
Thanks for the clarification guys. On with the eating then. :slight_smile:

Besides I figure, when you weight like what I do, no matter what your end goals are… some more mass wouldn’t hurt.

Btw… would u guys consider those models they use in men’s health or men’s fitness skinny?

No, I wouldn’t. While many of those guys are much smaller than pro bodybuilders, they still had to work hard to even reach that size which is one thing I don’t think many understand. I truly believe that some getting into this think that looking like that takes less work or that those models don’t have to lift heavy.

[/quote]

I think most of those guys are in the 170# range and very lean. I imagine they would weigh in the 190# range if they carried a more “normal” amount of fat. (normal is of course competely subjective).

I would not call them skinny, but they are not big either.

A few months ago, I decided I wanted to gain about 10-12 lbs., so I began eating more. Basically all I did was add 1 or 2 more CLEAN carb meals a day. My protein intake has always been around 1.5+ grams per pound BW. I went from 154 lbs. (I’m only 5’6") to where I’m at now…about 167 lbs. and I gained very little fat around my gut.

Sure, I gained a little fat and my pants got a little tighter but overall I’m happy with the “distribution” of the weight. It has also allowed me to move more weight in the gym. I think that the key to gaining “quality” weight is increasing CLEAN calories and of course, continuing to train intensely. For me, it’s been WM for the past 4 weeks.

[quote]Kablooey wrote:
Personally, I’ve been doing a sort of “Russian Bear” approach to eating the last week to put on mass. I’m eating almost every hour at least a little something, probably twice as many calories as I usually consume. Know what? Strangely enough, my abs are starting to show more, and I’m looking a little more cut in the waist area in general![/quote]

Could you expand a little on this “Russian Bear” diet you’re following? How many calories are you eating, and what is your LBM?

Thanks!

[quote]gottatrain wrote:
A few months ago, I decided I wanted to gain about 10-12 lbs., so I began eating more. Basically all I did was add 1 or 2 more CLEAN carb meals a day. My protein intake has always been around 1.5+ grams per pound BW. I went from 154 lbs. (I’m only 5’6") to where I’m at now…about 167 lbs. and I gained very little fat around my gut.

Sure, I gained a little fat and my pants got a little tighter but overall I’m happy with the “distribution” of the weight. It has also allowed me to move more weight in the gym. I think that the key to gaining “quality” weight is increasing CLEAN calories and of course, continuing to train intensely. For me, it’s been WM for the past 4 weeks.[/quote]

I think the point some of you miss (perhaps on purpose) is that everyone doesn’t have the same metabolism.

(hope this doesnt turn out to be a ramble)

I just started the S2B program. I too saw the $250 a month for personalized care. He ALSO offers a mapped out, more general program for $197 for the year. If you are buying supplements at all, just sub out one months worth of HOT-ROX and NO2 enhancer. Even if you aren’t buying lots of supplements, and keep running around in circles as to whay/when/why to eat, it is money well spent. He tells you EVERYTHING to eat, and every lift to do in the gym.

I bought Gourmet Nutrition several months ago, and like you apparently, it really has done nothing for me. So, with his prgram, you remove all of the 'well shit, how am I going to put this bodybuilders chili in my plan". He just tells you EXACTLY what to eat when. In the program, he gives you several GREAT tips on how to minimize time in The kitchen, and elminate the “I dont have time” excuses.

Because that was my problem. I knew EXACTLY what I should be doing, but my problem was implementation. You get access to a bunch of lectures that really tie together all the information he has laid out in his articles. And in those lectures, one of his mantras is that it is not about the food. It is about implementation. You may have the most optimized diet in the world, but unless you follow it, it will do nothing for you.

My problem was with all the information, I would second guess or jump off my diet plan and never really get anywhere. With this program, all I have to do is follow the program. done. no second guessing because JB and his team formulated it. I know it is right. so, I just shut up and start cooking.

I just need to sack up, spend a couple hours a week cooking and a few more dollars in the grocery store. BUT, I can say it will be better than constantly bouying between 12 and 16% body fat for the rest of my life. This program is about habituating to a healthy lifestyle. Changing your habits for life.

So, yes, I am recommending it for those who like me have a hard time with implementation. Some people can just grill up 4 lbs of chicken, put it in a ziploc bag and go. Many others can just get a bunch of steroids and not worry about eating clean. I am trying to maintian my health for life. I think this is the crutch I need to get my ball rolling.

I really cant speak to the results, but I think this is the culmination of all the research and study that JB and team have done through the years. I think everyone on this board would agree that the information given out by them is to be taken as body building gospel. Plus, JB and team have been tweaking their nutritional advice for thousands of clients through the years.

Upshot, I think it is worth a stab if you are asking a question like “Eating Like Crazy, Sound Advice?” You will short circuit 4-6 years of not getting to where you want to be.

Rant over. If you guys want, I could post progress shots on the forum. you can see how the program rolls for me. I could be the S2B guinnie pig, although I think there is another guy who is doing that. Or, if you want feel free to ask question. I am more than happy to oblige with my opinion.

I’ve dicided to go with Professor X’s method of bulking. I started off at 6’1 155lbs 2 years ago to 210lbs now with 17% bf. Gaining weight is no problem as long as i keep adding food but muscle gain has definitely started to decrease.

So is there any upper limit to the percentage of bodyfat you can have in the long period of bulk? I surely wouldn’t like to have 30% bodyfat. Thanks.