T Nation

E2D or E3D for Injections

My question, over on the AM boards they’re really starting to push/persuade guys away from the E2D injection schedule. The claim is that E3D is much more effective, especially when it comes to injecting hCG. While I haven’t seen any concrete proof as to why (as in pub studies), it seems to have started with the guys doing hCG monotherapy, and is now moving into the T+hCG protocols too.

What are the thoughts on this?

A sample post:

"Do you need more proof?

Guys are reporting that E3D schedule is best for HCG mono-theraphy.

Keep your average weekly T dose but change to E3D.

Day#1 T shot
Day#2 nothing (or Arimidex)
Day#3 (500, 750, 1000)iu HCG
Retest within 4 weeks, reduce T dose first (if required)
Draw blood 48 hrs after T shot.

Max Arimidex dose 2mg/week (divided)
Max HCG dose limited by:
E2 raise beyond control provided by 2 mg Arimidex
or
excessive BioAvailableTestosterone (BAT).

Taper testosterone shots down to zero if BAT allows.
(blood drawn in the morning of day#3"

What are the AM boards? I’m asking so I can get a frame of reference.

If you’re using exogenous hormones to replace natural hormones, it would seem obvious that the ideal delivery system would be the one that most closely mimics the body’s natural production.

So where is E3D coming from?

In exactly what way is E3D “more effective?” or “best.”

There are many cases in life where theory and practice don’t agree, so I’m not automatically discounting what others are saying, it’s just that I don’t see any substance here, so there’s not much to say about it.

[quote]hebsie wrote:
My question, over on the AM boards they’re really starting to push/persuade guys away from the E2D injection schedule. The claim is that E3D is much more effective, especially when it comes to injecting hCG.

While I haven’t seen any concrete proof as to why (as in pub studies), it seems to have started with the guys doing hCG monotherapy, and is now moving into the T+hCG protocols too.

What are the thoughts on this?

A sample post:

"Do you need more proof?

Guys are reporting that E3D schedule is best for HCG mono-theraphy.

Keep your average weekly T dose but change to E3D.

Day#1 T shot
Day#2 nothing (or Arimidex)
Day#3 (500, 750, 1000)iu HCG
Retest within 4 weeks, reduce T dose first (if required)
Draw blood 48 hrs after T shot.

Max Arimidex dose 2mg/week (divided)
Max HCG dose limited by:
E2 raise beyond control provided by 2 mg Arimidex
or
excessive BioAvailableTestosterone (BAT).

Taper testosterone shots down to zero if BAT allows.
(blood drawn in the morning of day#3"[/quote]

It depends on dosages and length of cycle. That will determine how much HCG, you need.

[quote]happydog48 wrote:
What are the AM boards? I’m asking so I can get a frame of reference.[/quote]

…sorry, Anabolic Minds, Male Anti-Aging Medicine forums

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/

…see, and that’s what I’ve always been led to believe, not by my doctor but by the guys that are living it.

…essentially posters like you and I. Who’s to know anyones real credentials in this electronic world!

[quote]In exactly what way is E3D “more effective?” or “best.”

There are many cases in life where theory and practice don’t agree, so I’m not automatically discounting what others are saying, it’s just that I don’t see any substance here, so there’s not much to say about it.[/quote]

…I’ll try and look for some specific links later. Most of it had to do would the longer half-life of the hCG and the long-term compounded effects that could/would be created by injecting E2D. Some claim that their doctors are telling them this, that E3D is the way to go.

FWIW, Dr.Crissler’s standard protocol is day 5 and 6 hCG (250iu/day) and then day 7 test (100mg). He swears by it, for most anyways.

And once again, this is all just internet here say. I was more just looking for an ‘untainted’ opinion. It seems that once something gets said on a board (like AM) it becomes ‘the new law’ so to speak.

Well I am testosterone only, but here is my experience,

Personally, EOD did not work well for me.

On the other hand, injecting twice a week E3.5 has been working great for me. It seems to keep me in a fairly steady state, no crashes, libido high the whole time.

[quote]e-loo wrote:
Well I am testosterone only, but here is my experience,

Personally, EOD did not work well for me.

On the other hand, injecting twice a week E3.5 has been working great for me. It seems to keep me in a fairly steady state, no crashes, libido high the whole time.[/quote]

…see, and that’s the kinda thing that I’m hearing, and at the same time, I’m also noticing much the same. About a month and a half ago I switched from doing twice weekly shots over to a Mon/Thurs/Sat schedule.

After about two weeks of that, and once I got the docs permission to do self-injects at home, I’ve since been doing EOD injects, alternating my TestCyp with the hCG. Things just haven’t felt right for me ever since.

Perhaps it’s worthwhile trying out an E3D schedule and seeing how that works for me. The deeper I delve into this ‘experiment’ the more that I learn there truly are no cookie cutter protocols that work for everyone. Unfortunately it’s just not that easy is it!..hebs

We all want to feel like we did when we were younger and had higher levels of T. We seek to duplicate the hormone patterns of youth.

It seems that younger guys have pituitary release of gonodotrophins ever third day. This ground breaking research took place on the AM boards. Injecting every third day restores the natural hormone rhythms of the AM board.

Prior to this, most of the medical community believed that men only released testosterone every two weeks.

[quote]hebsie wrote:
My question, over on the AM boards they’re really starting to push/persuade guys away from the E2D injection schedule. The claim is that E3D is much more effective, especially when it comes to injecting hCG. While I haven’t seen any concrete proof as to why (as in pub studies), it seems to have started with the guys doing hCG mono-therapy, …[/quote]

hCG for TRT will work for those who have secondary hypogonadism who also have testes that are able to produce significant amounts of T in response to hCG. In many cases, increasing hCG to increase T will not work. The testes have a limited capacity. Once the LH receptors are significantly loaded, the dose-response is non-linear. Too much hCG will down-regulate the LH receptors… exactly what is not needed.

If one has primary hypogonadism, [testes do not work well], hCG cannot be used alone for TRT, but can be used to prevent complete shutdown.

http://dspace.hsl.washington.edu/dspace/bitstream/2012/52/1/JCEM_2005_Low_Dose_Human.pdf

500iu EOD increased ITT 30% above the ITT of 250iu EOD; not a good yield ratio.