T Nation

E2 Testing - Sensitive vs. Ultra-Sensitive

[quote]KNB wrote:
Hey Dave,
Based on what you said here when you increased your adex dosage things got worse, maybe you are one of the “unlucky” over-responders. Excess E2 and too low E2 can sometimes look exactly the same, high E2: low penile sensitivity, excessively low E2: low penile sensitivity. Both too high and too low cause brain fog, memory “loss”, lack of “joy” in doing everyday things, and the list goes on and on. Really. Just ask KSman.

BTW, not everybody gets joint pain. We used to think everybody did or would, but we found that out to not be true.

I have more than one friend that when he upped his adex dosage, it affected him sexually. Poor erections, or erections that were not sensitive enough to bring about an orgasm.
If it was me, I would get liquid adex because the dosing is so micro tunable whereas the tablets are not, and you may find relief there.
If you haven’t quit the adex yet, quit for a week and see if you start to feel better. If so, then maybe the tiny-est amount of adex is right for you, as you may be an over-responder. [/quote]

that’s some good info KNB. i’m at that point now; low sensitivity, hard time getting off, ect. so my E2 is probably too low.

[quote]ZonaDave wrote:
without confirming by bloodwork i suspect my E2 is a little low right now but rather than lower the adex dose i want to try something different this time. from what i hear, the half-life of adex is approximately 50 hours so it seems logical to dose it EOD. the smallest dose i can make is .25mg (1/4 tab) using a pill cutter. at my current T dose of 60mg E3D it appears that .25mg of adex EOD is too much and i think if i took .25mg E3D it wouldn’t be enough and possibly cause fluctuations in E2.

alot of people struggle with adex dose and schedule so my new strategy is to not mess with the adex and increase my T dose to 70mg E3D to see what happens.

i’m not interested in research products, been down that road before. i bought some anastrozole from a source but i hear that it’s all bunk now. the problem is they aren’t regulated and the company basically has no liability because they state right on the bottle that it’s not for human consumption. this is hard enough without wondering if the meds are legit or not.[/quote]

Dave,
Research chemicals are not bunk. There may be some shady websites selling under dosed product, but they are chemically the same.
There are a lot of guys (and gals) using research chemicals with good results. I used to use them until I my adex paid for by insurance. The whole “not for human comsumption” thing is to keep the FDA and the DEA of the backs of those companies. As an example in the US, there is no generic adex available unless it is “research” only. A while back one one companies I know of changed their formulation of adex and it wouldn’t stay dissolved unless a significant amount of alcohol was added to it by the buyer. I addede alcohol, it worked fine, and months later it was still in solution. The adex powder is not made by the company that stamps the tablets, so there is “excess” powder available to be made into research chems. As long as the compound is “not for humans” the copyright has not been violated, and the parent company cannot sue for infringement.
The last time I checked, 1000mg’s of adex powder was 150.00 US, if that amount were stamped into tablets it would retail for 10,000, yet R-Chems would sell it for 1000.00 or so and still make money at that. Big pharma is greedy and anything to keep some yo-yo from buying a new corporate jet is good by me. Got it?

hmmm, interesting…i didn’t know that about liquidex. i didn’t mean all liquidex is bunk, i meant all the stuff from a particular company was bunk.

i use to get compounded anastrozole and the pharmacy could mix it in pretty much any strength capsules the doc ordered. i talked to the pharmacy owner about putting it in a liquid form and he said it wouldn’t be stabil so i never pursued it.

my new doc prescribes adex and my insurance covers it so i never tried anything else after that. one thing i discovered about adex is it’s alot stronger than compounded anastrozole. on 100mg of T i needed 1.5mg of anastrozole to get my E2 at a good level. half that dose of adex is obviously putting me too low on 120mg/week of T.

ZD,
I not sure about the strength difference you talk about from the pharmacy, but anything is possible. That’s really odd, not impossible by any means, just odd.
So if I read this this right, 3/4mg a week is too much right now, or at least the present time. (there are discussions that as time goes on a person’s adex requirements will change)
Okay, here’s an idea: make your own liquid adex. It would be difficult based on the fact that the tabs are very small and hard to powder properly, and not knowing what carrier the tabs are made with, how much would dissolve into solution, but it could be done. Dosing of course would be a guess for a while, but if you were patient enough you could figure it out. Yeah, what a hassle…

I too use a pill cutter and 1/4 tab is about the smallest size to try to get w/o making dust, but my body requires more adex than yours to be happy, and I am less sensitive to dosing change apparently too.

As was mentioned before, adex does have a half life of approx. 50 hours as far as we know. Which means it takes between 12 and 14 days for the blood serum level to equalize or “max out”. And, for guys that have high circulating E2 levels along with receptor “overload”, it can take a month or more for some guys to even feel a difference is taking place.

[quote]KNB wrote:

Hey KSman, do you know why your doctor didn’t prescribe folic acid to improve the absorption of the B12? Mine is adamant about folic acid to compliment the B12 shots.[/quote]

When injecting, is that even an issue?

I take all of the vitamins etc that my doc could think of, so we do not discuss than anymore.

Anastrozole is very fast acting on T–>E aromatization rates. Taking twice a week is creating waves.

50mg zinc will block absorption of some copper. You can’t high dose without problems. If you are controlling E with anastrozole, then you do not need large amounts of zinc to reduce aromatization.

[quote]ZonaDave wrote:

one annoying symptom is low dick sensitivity and these half-boners. even taking viagra only gets me about 3/4 hard most of the time and that’s with quite a bit of effort. not sure if this is from not enough T or E2 too high/too low. my wife is really supportive and she knows it’s not her but it still has a profound affect on a relationship.[/quote]

Libido can be elusive. As well as levels and balance of steroid hormones, neural transmitters can suffer with age. Dopamine is critical to libido and other forms of well-being and enjoyment. Cabergoline, Wellbutrin and deprenyl are all available to increase dopamine. Cabergoline 0.5mg/wk is not associated with side effects. Some feel over stimulated or racy on Wellbutrin. Deprenyl at 10mg/week is quite good, perhaps the best. Combos need to be carefully done to avoid dopamine overload. If you have trouble sleeping, try 3mg time release melatonin. If you need more than that, trazodone is quite clean and effective for sleeping and is also dopergenic. Use smaller amounts, see what works, and avoid feeling a drag over effect into the morning. Trazodone is a dirt cheap generic.

We all loose dopamine with age. For those who loose dopamine fast, they have Parkinson’s disease. The rest just feel old. Deprenyl reduces the processes that cause dopamine loss. It is thus a real anti-aging/life-extension drug. If we could stop all diseases, we would all die from dopamine loss.

You can take small dose tadalifil ED or EOD. Suggest 8-10mg EOD when on TRT. This might not be enough to make a difference for someone not on TRT who has some performance issues.

Get some compounded 5-10% T cream and apply to your [clipped] scrotum to increase DHT. DHT is mission critical for libido. That is why 5-alpha reductase inhibitors can save your hair and ruin libido or worse. Apply small amounts of T cream to your penis. Be careful with timing of application and sex. Small amounts of T can be good for a woman. Be aware of the negative effects of too much.

The topical T will really wake up the nerves in your penis and restore sensitivity. Increasing dopamine does some of the same. Have script written for .5ml/day.

low dose tadalifil EOD
compounded topical T to increase DHT and wake up the nerves in your penis
drugs to increase dopamine - which also lower prolactin levels
sleep aids if needed: melatonin and trazodone

[quote]KNB wrote:
ZD,
I not sure about the strength difference you talk about from the pharmacy, but anything is possible. That’s really odd, not impossible by any means, just odd.
So if I read this this right, 3/4mg a week is too much right now, or at least the present time. (there are discussions that as time goes on a person’s adex requirements will change)
Okay, here’s an idea: make your own liquid adex. It would be difficult based on the fact that the tabs are very small and hard to powder properly, and not knowing what carrier the tabs are made with, how much would dissolve into solution, but it could be done. Dosing of course would be a guess for a while, but if you were patient enough you could figure it out. Yeah, what a hassle…

I too use a pill cutter and 1/4 tab is about the smallest size to try to get w/o making dust, but my body requires more adex than yours to be happy, and I am less sensitive to dosing change apparently too.

As was mentioned before, adex does have a half life of approx. 50 hours as far as we know. Which means it takes between 12 and 14 days for the blood serum level to equalize or “max out”. And, for guys that have high circulating E2 levels along with receptor “overload”, it can take a month or more for some guys to even feel a difference is taking place.

[/quote]

actually i think the .75mg/week of adex is too much right now but .25mg is the smallest dose i can take EOD so i’m going to stick with it for awhile and just increase my T a little. i don’t use HCG so 120mg/week is probably on the low side. i think 140mg (70mg 2x/week) will help.

[quote]KSman wrote:
KNB wrote:

Hey KSman, do you know why your doctor didn’t prescribe folic acid to improve the absorption of the B12? Mine is adamant about folic acid to compliment the B12 shots.

When injecting, is that even an issue?

I take all of the vitamins etc that my doc could think of, so we do not discuss than anymore.[/quote]

It is especially an issue when injecting due to long life that injected B12 has. (or so I am told) My doc has me use 10mg’s of Folic acid to every 1mg of B12 every week. I believe it has something to do controlling homocystene levels

[quote]ZonaDave wrote:
KNB wrote:
ZD,
I not sure about the strength difference you talk about from the pharmacy, but anything is possible. That’s really odd, not impossible by any means, just odd.
So if I read this this right, 3/4mg a week is too much right now, or at least the present time. (there are discussions that as time goes on a person’s adex requirements will change)
Okay, here’s an idea: make your own liquid adex. It would be difficult based on the fact that the tabs are very small and hard to powder properly, and not knowing what carrier the tabs are made with, how much would dissolve into solution, but it could be done. Dosing of course would be a guess for a while, but if you were patient enough you could figure it out. Yeah, what a hassle…

I too use a pill cutter and 1/4 tab is about the smallest size to try to get w/o making dust, but my body requires more adex than yours to be happy, and I am less sensitive to dosing change apparently too.

As was mentioned before, adex does have a half life of approx. 50 hours as far as we know. Which means it takes between 12 and 14 days for the blood serum level to equalize or “max out”. And, for guys that have high circulating E2 levels along with receptor “overload”, it can take a month or more for some guys to even feel a difference is taking place.

actually i think the .75mg/week of adex is too much right now but .25mg is the smallest dose i can take EOD so i’m going to stick with it for awhile and just increase my T a little. i don’t use HCG so 120mg/week is probably on the low side. i think 140mg (70mg 2x/week) will help.[/quote]

Dave,
You meant every third day, right? Back when I injected my T shots twice a week, I used Monday morning and Thursday evening. Were you planning on taking your adex something like that? If so, you may notice great erection days and good erection days due to the difference in blood serum levels from the adex. If you can’t find your happy spot that way, there are always RC’s…

i meant .25mg EOD to stay within the 50 hour half-life. i felt like my E2 was a little too low so i stopped taking adex for a week. several days after stopping it i got morning wood, my libido came back and EQ was alot better. when my E2 was too low i had a really tough time getting off to the point where it was more of a challenge than fun.

taking adex on my shot days (monday morning/thursday evening) might work well.

can you PM me with some reputable RC’s?

[quote]ZonaDave wrote:
i meant .25mg EOD to stay within the 50 hour half-life. i felt like my E2 was a little too low so i stopped taking adex for a week. several days after stopping it i got morning wood, my libido came back and EQ was alot better. when my E2 was too low i had a really tough time getting off to the point where it was more of a challenge than fun.

taking adex on my shot days (monday morning/thursday evening) might work well.

can you PM me with some reputable RC’s?[/quote]

Correcting the thyroid has corrected my e2 no need for AI any more as well as many other of my patients have reported same thing. I have been off adex for over 8 weeks, but I am watching it carefully if it rebounds on me. I think I am past the hump.

what’s involved with correcting thyroid? my doc ran tests for thyroid and said everything was ok but i don’t know enough about it to agree.

[quote]Hardasnails wrote:
ZonaDave wrote:
i meant .25mg EOD to stay within the 50 hour half-life. i felt like my E2 was a little too low so i stopped taking adex for a week. several days after stopping it i got morning wood, my libido came back and EQ was alot better. when my E2 was too low i had a really tough time getting off to the point where it was more of a challenge than fun.

taking adex on my shot days (monday morning/thursday evening) might work well.

can you PM me with some reputable RC’s?

Correcting the thyroid has corrected my e2 no need for AI any more as well as many other of my patients have reported same thing. I have been off adex for over 8 weeks, but I am watching it carefully if it rebounds on me. I think I am past the hump.[/quote]

are you on shots or gels? what’s your protocol?

i have to try something else because nothing seem to be working that well. in the past year i can count on one hand how many times i had a strong sex drive accompanied by great erections. it can’t be this hard to get things dialed in.

i hear about guys adjusting their adex each month. to me that sounds ridiculous because you never hear of anyone constantly adjusts their T dosage to raise of lower E2. even when i get great nocturnal erections there’s no sign of libido so i have no idea why so many guys focus on that. what’s the point of having a hard dick at 3am when you’re sound asleep? to me that’s like saying you have 21 inch biceps when you sleep but as soon as you wake they go back down to 17 inches.

crickets…

[quote]ZonaDave wrote:
crickets…[/quote]

Good thread.

I have nothing new to add, except to say that this is a subject of interest to me. I will post something when I have some data to share, that is to say, personal anecdotal gossip. I will be seeing my urologist next month and I intend to get some T cream for (ahem) ‘local application’.

Anyone else besides KSman trying this local application of T cream to supplement their TRT, for the purpose of increasing sensitivity?

i think E2 has the biggest affect on sensitivity. when i’m outside the E2 sweet spot i lose sensitivity. this goes hand in hand with libido for me.