T Nation

E2/Test Ratio and Adex Formula


#1

First off I apologize if this has been answered before. I have done some searching and did not find what I was looking for or at least to where I could understand it. I posted this in the "Over 35" forum but didn't get a lot of responses.

I have been around T-Nation for quite some time but never registered or posted. Have been on HRT for several years now and have gotten everything dialed in some time back due in large part to the writings of KSman as well as many others on these boards. My question is as follows;

I know that I need 2.5 mg's of Adex spread throughout the week to keep my E2 in the mid 20's with 200 mg of test each week, also done in multiple shots (2).

If I were to raise my Test dosage to 600 mg a week while keeping my Hcg dosage of 250 iu EOD the same, is there a good formula to know how much to raise my Adex dosage?

For example do I just take my Adex dosage times 3 like I did my Test?

Bottom line reason I ask is because I just dont feel like I think I should on 600 mg's. I am afraid the relationship between my E2 and my Test levels is not linear. On 200 a week with my 2.5 mgs of Adex I feel really great. On 600 and 7.5 mg's of Adex a week I still feel good but not as good as I do on 200, but I am much stronger in the gym, which is what I am after.

A few guys in the "Over 35" forum mentioned Aromasin might be better for me due to the theory that Adex kind of stacks up and doesn't do much good past 3.5 mg a week or so. For lack of a better term it can only do so much as where the Aromasin will work at higher doses stopping the higher conversion rate of E2.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance for your time, if I left something out or you need more info please let me know.

3+3


#2

Hopefully you’ll get some answers from people with E2 issues, in addition to mine, because I have no easy answers for you :frowning:

I’m not aware of any linear relationship between exogenous Test levels and E2. Other factors such as the 5AR conversion rate are going to come into play. So unfortunately, it likely comes down to trial and error on your part in dosing your AI.

Now, you’re using a high dose of adex, yet you say that you don’t “feel” like you’re on 600 mg Test. How long have you been at 600? Is there any objective evidence of high E2 levels at the moment? Do you show signs of heightened aromatase activity (ie. bloating)?

The thing is, not everybody feels unbelievably young and powerful on higher doses of Test. Not saying that you’re incorrect in your interpretation of the situation, but that you do need to consider the possibility that you expected a little too much.

I’ve never had a problem with arimidex, so I’ve haven’t felt the need to change AI regimes. Still, I have to admit, the accolades that aromasin receives from its users are very convincing. If I was you frankly, I probably would pick up some aromasin and experiment with it. Irreversibly knocking out aromatase may be a better approach, particularly in your situation. By contrast, there’s also letro, of course, which is roughly akin to supercharged arimidex.


#3

Man, thanks for the great reply. All of the research I am doing points more and more towards the Aromasin and some experimentation.

To clarify the “feeling” of being on 600 mg of Test; I have a better sense of well being on my standard HRT protocol. With that being said, I have more aggression, but in a good way at 200 than I do at 600. I have experimented with 600 a few times now. I am always able to make better gains in the gym but at a cost of what I call E2 sides. Basically I get alot of the same feelings I had before I ever started HRT and had low T (in the 200’s) and a “normal” E2 count but a real bad ratio.

These symptoms include lack of motivation, a little bloating, bad mental fogginess, and slight depression. Not depressed for any reason other than the fact that I don’t feel that great. I can still function fine I just am kind of down in the dumps. Also on my HRT dose I generally really happy and although I have more aggression I can control it real easy, however on the higher dose I am just pretty pissy all the time and really easily agitated to the point that I have a hard time controlling it.

Maybe this is pretty common for a lot of people and like you said, I was expecting too much.

I really appreciate your input.

Thanks again.

Any other thoughts or suggestions are welcome.

3+3


#4

Have you checked blood levels (E2) when on 600 mg/w test?


#5

[quote]Dynamo Hum wrote:
Have you checked blood levels (E2) when on 600 mg/w test?[/quote]

No, I haven’t. I plan to but haven’t due to financial reasons as well as the fact that things of this nature must remain discreet around the 3+3 camp if you know what I mean. When I do get the funding (probably through LEF.org) I will have to do it without Mrs. 3+3 knowing and I haven’t quite figured out a way to do that yet. Savvy?

I know I am kind of shooting in the dark without labs but that is the hand I am dealt at the moment, which I why I am here. lol

3+3


#6

I hear you. You can always play with the Adex dose continually upping it until joint soreness and other low E2 syptoms present. Then lower the dose a little to find your sweet spot. That can work with Letro too. Aromasin is another option as mentioned.


#7

Is it pharm-grade Adex or research chemical?

If it is a research chem. Are you using the same batch of Adex for the 600mg cycle as you had been using during your time on HRT?


#8

[quote]Dynamo Hum wrote:
I hear you. You can always play with the Adex dose continually upping it until joint soreness and other low E2 symptoms present. Then lower the dose a little to find your sweet spot. That can work with Letro too. Aromasin is another option as mentioned.[/quote]

Actually I have done that. I have gone all the way up to 2 mg a day before with no change as compared to 1 mg a day. I did this in 2 week increments upping the dose each time by 1/4 mg a day.

I am guessing maybe I just need something a little different (stronger for lack of a better word) like Aromasin.

3+3


#9

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Is it pharm-grade Adex or research chemical?

If it is a research chem. Are you using the same batch of Adex for the 600mg cycle as you had been using during your time on HRT? [/quote]

I have both actually and have tried both on separate occasions.

Both seem to work nearly identical as far as dosage.

3+3


#10

I think that your dosage of AI when on 200mg/wk is perfect - thus your good feelings, etc. However i think that tripling the AI dose in line with the Test dose is a mistake - it doesn’t work like that AFAIK.
You take over 1mg/day of Adex when on 600mg/wk - this is too much IMO… far too much.

I would suggest you do the following - (Adex is so easy to ‘feel’ and adjust compared to letro IME, this should be easy - it was for me) take the dose of adex you use with TRT - with the 600mg/wk, in your case 0.35mg/day.
After 3 or so weeks (the Test level takes time to build to its highest doses) assess how you feel, increasing the dose by 0.1-0.15mg at a time. 0.35mg will be enough i would think to keep estrogen from giving serious sides even at 600mg/wk - although it is unlikely to have you in the low/normal range if it is the amount needed for that purpose when using 200mg/wk (according to bloods).
I would say that 1mg/wk is far too high. I am sensitive to estrogen/aromatase and when using 7-800mg Test and 350-400mg 19-NorTest, i use 0.75mg Adex a day… just to compare.

If you are good with 0.35mg on 200mg/wk then i would think 0.5mg would be ample for 600mg/wk, this equates to the 3.5mg/wk mentioned above somewhere IIRC.

There is no formula i know of for this - only personal experience of the two drugs and also the info you gave.

Hope this helps.

Brook


#11

OP,

Brook is suggesting that the symptoms you felt were brought on by too low E2" as opposed to your assessment of too high E2. Is that a possibility or were the symptoms clearly those of too high? Some of the symptoms like poor libido, mental fogginess, poor morale can overlap. Bloating is unique to too low E2 however.