T Nation

E2 Raises Over Time of Cycle

i have been a long time reader and i thank all u guys on this forum. i wasnt exactly sure where to put this so im thinking here. here goes. my technical question is, test e cycle 500 mg a week split into two shots of 250mg mon and thurs. i understand aromatization occurs but im wondering if it is more as u get into the 4th or 5th week of the cycle, my understanding is the test reaches peak levels in your blood around 4-6 weeks, so can i say that the aromatization and e2 levels will elevate more in the 4-6 week period of the cycle and would have been lower in weeks 1-4?

i ask this because im at the end of week 4 and all along i have also been taking liquidex .5mg eod. just in the past few days i haven’t had the really hard morning wood and it was a bit difficult to ejaculate today, sorry so graphic, we are all adults here u know! so basically im wondering since the test reaches a peak level in later weeks, wouldn’t the aromatization of test to estrogen increase and e2 go up as well, meaning i might have to bump up the adex a bit? thanks for your time!!!

Read the protocol for injections sticky, and do not post there.

T levels are stable quite quickly. T–>E2 aromatization rates are determined by FT or bio-T levels at any particular instant. E2 levels build as a balance is found with the liver removing SHBG bound T.

There is a delay in the effects of E2&T on cells, which alters gene expression and cellular function.

You are taking 3.5mg anastrozole for your 500mg/week T dose. You may find that you need 5mg/week. See that sticky.

Note the comments about anastrozole over-responders in the above sticky and the estradiol sticky.

Your complain seems to mirror what happens with TRT when E2 is not managed or not managed properly.

ksman, thanks for the direction to the sticky, u said im taking 3.5mg adex a week but im taking it .5mg eod not ed, i think thats how u came up with 3.5 mg a week? im just curious as u may have another suggestion, thanks…please forgive, im not trying to correct u im just trying to be sure, thanks again!!!

I read .5 ED, so I was wrong. You can try .5 ED.

The TRT rule of thumb, 1mg per week for each 100mg test ester per week, suggests 5mg/week. But the linear relationship may not hold at that extreme. Are you using tablets or liquid?

Without lab work, you are fling blind. But if you feel great, you must be near a good level.

You might feel a dramatic improvement in 7-10 days.

i plan on doing not full bloodwork but just get the e2 checked, there is a lab local that does for a reasonable rate, yes i do feel great, i know im close but i like to see what other peoples opinions and experiences are, thank u so much! let me ask u this, typically a higher e2 will make it hard to orgasm not lower? can that be said? i dont think ive ever been low but im going to get tested, thanks again!

ksman, im using liquid…

[quote]KSman wrote:
I read .5 ED, so I was wrong. You can try .5 ED.

The TRT rule of thumb, 1mg per week for each 100mg test ester per week, suggests 5mg/week. But the linear relationship may not hold at that extreme. Are you using tablets or liquid?

Without lab work, you are fling blind. But if you feel great, you must be near a good level.

You might feel a dramatic improvement in 7-10 days.[/quote]

FTR I have never once seen a guy on AAS that needs any more than 3 mg/week of Adex, and that is on the upper end (1g+ per week of test). Most seem to do fine right around 1.5 mg/week in divided doses.

He said “cycle” three times, plus once in the title. 500mg a week is a second clue.

Doesn’t sound TRT-related to me.

dooright thanks for your input, i also said in my first couple sentences that i wasn’t sure where to place this but i chose here because i know the members in this forum are very knowledgeable. I had a very technical question that i felt was beyond the typical weight lifter who uses AAS, (no disrespect there!). If you can shed some light on the differences between KSman’s and VTBalla34’s answers to my question that would be greatly appreciated as i am trying to get a better understanding of this every day, thanks!!!

[quote]fudgemik wrote:
dooright thanks for your input, i also said in my first couple sentences that i wasn’t sure where to place this but i chose here because i know the members in this forum are very knowledgeable. I had a very technical question that i felt was beyond the typical weight lifter who uses AAS, (no disrespect there!). If you can shed some light on the differences between KSman’s and VTBalla34’s answers to my question that would be greatly appreciated as i am trying to get a better understanding of this every day, thanks!!![/quote]

I wouldn’t count on dooright to add much value to anything…he somehow fancies himself a sort of forum policeman, without the burden of contributing anything of value to any discussion I have been witness to.

I stated what the relationship is that works most of the time for TRT. I also stated that in your case, the linear relationship may not hold. There is zero conflict between what I stated and what VTBalla34 stated. It is up to you to see how things work out for your situation. The only way to resolve this and get a data point would be to get labs, then adjust the anastrozole dose in the manner that I describe to get near E2=22pgml and see where you end up. Then ‘we’ would know your dose VS 500mg T and would also see how the linear dose adjustment works in this situation.

I think that is valid that this question was taken to this forum. Fudgemik is considering things that he would not get in a steroid forum and I am glad to have an opportunity to have our knowledge flow in that direction.

fudgemilk, I have some doubts about your course of action. First, the natural function of your body is to produce Testosterone in pulses. Testosterone has a half-life of under four hours, and the result is that a person’s natural FT levels will vary greatly over a normal daily cycle. Usually higher than average early in the morning, and lower than average at night as I recall.

Exogenous estered T makes a constant level available throughout your “cycle”, for however long that cycle may be. Testosterone has been described as a messenger, and a key that fits into a lock. What happens when this message is a constant “unlock” for days, weeks, or months? Does this have any effect on our systems? How can it not! Many of us have to take HCG to compensate for the testicle pain and shrinkage caused by this action. Even those of us who take only “physiological levels”, whatever that term might mean when viewed in the pulsatile context above. Can this have an effect on your desire and your wood? Sure it can! Just look at the problems that come up in this forum; we have so little understanding of how this all works, what to measure, or even when to measure it. How many doctors compensate for phase of this natural cycle when interpreting FT data in diagnosing for hypogonadism?

Of course, someone taking exogenous estered should have a high and constant level of T. I just use this to show how far “we” have wandered from being natural, or scientific in our approach.

In my own case, I have been taking unestered T in sub-pharmacological amounts once a day in the morning, in hopes of mimicking and supplementing natural production. Plus Liquidex. You would think that such a small amount of T that clears in hours would not cause side effects, but it does! It causes wild peripheral edema every six weeks or so, and for “no reason”. My E2 should easily be compensated by the Adex in theory, but this happens just the same.

Another doubt I have is the Liquidex that you and I both have taken. What is it, really? I recently got a new bottle from a second supplier, and it doesn’t look the same or taste the same. Which one is the real stuff? Can any differences affect your desire and wood? I’m sure the potential is there.

We go with what information we can get, and the information on our Research Chemicals is pretty sketchy. How do they compare with real Arimidex? I will know for myself in a month or so, because I’ve started with medical grade Adex, and will be able to verify the quality and doseage. One wild variable under control. We can crudely add fluids and measure responses, but how the body works as a dynamic system, we really don’t know so much.

Sorry this doesn’t answer your question. KSman and VTBalla34 both give the best advice we have, and both are saying that you are near the limit of what they know. I don’t think it can be answered except by experimentation. Or maybe the obvious “if it hurts when you do that, then stop doing it!”

I’ll be posting the ‘forum police’ issue here in its own thread.

As far as RC AI, I think the “meat” of the product is going to be the same. However, there will be differences in the vehicle in which that “meat” arrives. I’ve had liquidex from 2-3 different places, and yes, they looked/tasted different. One was very “mediciny” tasting, for lack of a better term. The other one tasted like Scope mouthwash. Both have provided nearly identical lab results (within my margin for error using a 1ml syringe to measure).

Fudge, the best advice I think is to start at a dosage - whatever you think might work, say 1mg/week in divided doses. Then, just adjust from there as symptoms come on. Go slow though in your adjustments, say .25mg. Too much AI is as bad as not enough. You should be able to get pretty well dialed in over the course of a standard 12 week cycle, I would think.

EDIT: I reread your initial post…and this is just my theory. E2 levels will rise at at steady state from the onset of added test, but it just takes some time before the levels get to where there are going to be sides. Adding the AI in from the beginning should help regulate the rise in E2 to prevent sides.

thanks for your time to read guys, i will get blood work when i can, like i say ive been taking .5mg adex eod and things just kinda just started to change so 3 days ago i bumped it to .75mg and today i took 1mg, well 3 hours later, and im feeling quite better, kinda crazy that hit my system and i noticed it. I will give this a go for a bit at the 1mg eod, i will report back, thanks again guys. really thanks…