T Nation

E/C Timing


#1

Hey guys. Took my first dose of my E/C stack today. I am using it for fat loss, but I read it boosts engery a little too. I took it about 40 minutes before my workout, and I felt a little boost in energy around the end of my workout.

I was wondering, how long does it usually take for the effects of the E/C to kick in? I didnt feel "high" or anything like some people have described. I also did not get jittery. Which I dont mind because I dont want to feel out of it all of the time. But like I said, I only had one dose today. 25/200 pure Ephedrine HCL, no Gus.

How long should my doses be apart? I heard that it can be taken up to 3 times a day, AM, Lunch and Dinner. Well my lunch and dinner are only about 3-4 hours apart due to my class schedule so I was wondering if 3 hours was long enough in between doses.

Also, are there any negative effects of drinking alcohol after a dose? Say 3-4 hours afterwards.

I did do a search, but I 90% of my results were "is ephedrine banned" type of posts.


#2

Effects from oral absorption generally start appearing within the first 45 minutes.

Caffeine half-life is highly variable from person to person but is usually withing 2-7 hours.

Ephedrine half-life is aroud 4-6 hours.

Some people are more sensitive to stimulants then others.

Considering that most of the effects from E/C stacks are due mostly to anorectic effects and not increased lipolysis, higher doses are not significantly more efficient at weight loss but do increase side-effects.

In your case, there is laregely no need to take such a high dose.

Over the last seven years, I have tried a lot of doses for E/C and found similar weight loss/anorexia with far reduced doses.

12.5 mg E/ 100 mg C early in the morning and again 1 hour befour lunch was well sufficent to cut cravings and allow for effective diet control.

If you were really interested in increased lipolysis, HOT-ROX offers (theoretically) more benefits in that regard.

EC basically just cuts appetite.

Alcohol and ephedrine used togheter can increase feelings of dizziness and lightheadedness usually felt with alcohol. (Together means as long as ephedrine is in the bloodstream, which, with and average half-life of 5 hours means 25 hours following the dose, so technically, its never).

In reality, it has rarely any significant effects, that I ever noted.

As for the dosing, besides the fact that it probably not all that useful to go above 20-30 mg per day, you can dose all you want, the therapeutic index for ephedrine is relatively wide allowing for very large doses to be taken.

Studies on soldiers for increased alertness tested doses up to 400 mg if I remember correctly, so you can relax.

Anyway, you should try Google...

AlexH


#3

I resent this.


#4

Thank you. That was helpfull. I wasnt sure what to expect when I first took it. I was happy to see that I didnt get hit with side effects. I took my 2nd dose at 430 last night and I couldnt sleep until around 130 so no more late doses for me.


#5

As for my dose, I read it was better to take a 10-12/100 dose every 2 hours. But my caffeine pills are 200mg powder in a capsule. I dont have any way to properly split that into 2 doses.


#6

It has been suggested to start using Ephedrine and Caffeine with doses which are spaced closer and then as you use it, spacing the dosages out. By close I mean as near as 2 hours apart at first, but start with a lower dose to asses tollerance and avoid taking it late on.

Logic behind this is it will enhance the length and efficiency of beta-adrenergic activity.

AS you keep using it, space the dosage out, in the early stages of use, keep the dosage a little lower to assess tollerance. The insomnia you experienced, would not last into usage.

Long term use of the Ephedrine does lead to beta-2 downregulation. But unlike widely thought it does not induce fairly quick attenuation and down-regulation of adrenergic receptors. Some people talk about EC stacks stopping working quickly (within 2 weeks) like mainly Beta 2 agonists like Clenbuterol.

When using over 12 + weeks though it (Ephedrine) will cause the beta-2 receptors on muscle and fat cells to burrow into the membranes to reduce their availability.

This is the main cause of attenuation of the most noticeable effects of Ephedrine usage like the buzz and insomnia.

The fat burning effect through thermogeneses will actually increase thorugh beta-3 receptor stimulation though. So as you use it you keep the good bits without most of the bad bits so to speak. Beta 3 adrenergic receptor is different from the Beta 2 receptors because it has a lower affinity for catecholamines, and it resists desensitization.

Astrup A, Lundsgaard C, Madsen J, Christensen NJ "Enhanced thermogenic responsiveness during chronic ephedrine treatment in man" Am J Clin Nutr 1985, Vol 42 (1), Pg 83-94, PMID: 0004014068.

Dulloo, AG "Ephedrine, xanthines and prostaglandin-inhibitors: actions and interactions in the stimulation of thermogenesis." Int J Obes 1993 Feb, Vol 17 (Suppl 1), Pg S35-40, PMID: 0008384178.


#7

Ok, this concurs with what I was trying to say in the post I just made. Which wasn't visible when I wrote this.

I'd look for another caffeine tablet and save the 200's for later on when you increase the dosage and the space between taking it. You could start at 2 hrs and increase it over a time period from 2 - 2.5 - 3 - 2.5 - 4 hrs apart.


#8

Thanks alot Doc. I will look for a smaller Caffeine dose and cut my ephedrine tabs in half. When spacing doses out over time... Should I change it by 30 minutes a week? Would that be a decent increment?

You mention after 12 weeks it may lose effectiveness (thats how I read it anyway). Or did you mean that in 12 weeks side effects like insomnia and tremors(which I havent experienced) will subside. Would you recommend cycling the supp?


#9

No you don't need to cycle it, the stimulatory effects are reduced but the fat burning isn't.

To be honest its simple to just use a supplement like HOT-ROX. I've come to this conclusion after using just about every fat loss stack / supplement under the sun.

Found a guy selling HOT-ROX at a very good price over here and its working well. I've used, various forumulations of Ma Huang / Ephedra, Sida Cordifolia, Yohimbe some stuff that doesn't work (the forumulations touted by some of the Muscle Magazines) and other bits and bobs inc Clenbuterol (not recc) and Ultimate Orange type stuff (not recently), Ripped Fuel, Diet Fuel, Cuts III, Xenadrine etc etc and HOT-ROX doesn't have any real undesirable side effects. The traditional 'diet pill' that isn't dex or eph based will usually be loaded with caffeine and or guarana anyway which is a little crude.

It works well but I did not notice much till I got onto the 2nd pot.


#10

I understand, it kinda pissed me off to when I did the litt. review a while back.

But in humans, the research that I have seen seemed to indicate that anorectic effects accounted for as much as 75% of weightloss. More so, the increase in BMR is more significant in the obese than in normal individuals, showing statistical BMR elevation that were nonetheless insignificant for weightloss.

Of course, animal studies show largely the opposite. Then again, UCP-1/3 and brown fat presence is significantly different.

I am simply mentionning that thermogenesis is not to main component of E/C induced weightloss. As opposed to 2,4-DNP, sodium usinate or HOT-ROX.

As for Beta-3 activation, I was under the impression that Beta-3 activation under ephedrine was either negligible or inexistant and that postulated indirect activation through Nor-epi release was doubtfull since its plasma/urine-metabolites presence is generally reduced under ephedrine treatement.

Anyway,
AlexH.


#11

haha!


#12

Cressey's one of T-Nation's great contributers. His nickname is EC


#13

Liu YL, Toubro S, Astrup A, Stock MJ. Contribution of beta 3-adrenoceptor activation to ephedrine-induced thermogenesis in humans. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 1995 Sep;19(9):678-685

Nantel F, Bonin H, Emorine LJ, Zilberfarb V, Strosberg AD, Bouvier M, Marullo S The human beta 3-adrenergic receptor is resistant to short term agonist-promoted desensitization. Mol Pharmacol 1993 Apr;43(4):548-555


#14

Ah, man, now I look like an ass.

I know who Cressey is, I just didn't make the link...

Oh, well!

AlexH.