[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Water and carb manipulation, tanning, posing, etc are finishing touches. Drugs are part of the foundation to success.[/quote]
I’d say that more accurately describes the situation.[/quote]
I’m pretty sure I know what you guys mean, but having ‘drugs’ and ‘foundation’ in the same sentence just does not feel right. “Drugs are an inevitable part of success”? “Drugs can’t be overlooked or ignored on the path to success”?
Like I said, I can see it from both camps. The raw fact, though, is that a natural bodybuilder has no chance against a competitor who’s drugged, just the same as someone who doesn’t have their diet figured out, or doesn’t know how to train effectively, or just doesn’t have the right dimensions and symmetry. So in that way, no, drugs cannot be overlooked.
It’s not like waxing a car. Posing oil would be a better equivalent. Tanning would be analogous to the paint job. Steroids are not a finishing touch. That would be like saying iron weights are just a finishing touch. Or food was just a finishing touch.
You need all three to achieve the muscle mass necessary for success, just as you need metal, tooling, and power to form the car itself. Any two, without the third, will not yield the necessary results
[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Water and carb manipulation, tanning, posing, etc are finishing touches. Drugs are part of the foundation to success.[/quote]
I’d say that more accurately describes the situation.[/quote]
I’m pretty sure I know what you guys mean, but having ‘drugs’ and ‘foundation’ in the same sentence just does not feel right. “Drugs are an inevitable part of success”? “Drugs can’t be overlooked or ignored on the path to success”?[/quote]
Remember we are talking about Pro Body Building here, and at the Pro level drugs are an absolute must.
When its something you HAVE to do in order to compete, its foundational. No one is going to be competitive if they JUST do steroids and dont train and eat well, but the drugs are absolutely necessary and without them Pro BBing would look very different.
if it was just drugs, then the person taking the most drugs would be the best.
Obviously drugs are necessary at the pro level, but genetics will always be king.
[quote]Yogi wrote:
if it was just drugs, then the person taking the most drugs would be the best.
Obviously drugs are necessary at the pro level, but genetics will always be king.[/quote]
and if it were just food, whoever ate the most would win. And if it was just the iron, whoever lifted the most would win. And if it were just genetics, then the iron and the food and the drugs wouldn’t matter at all.
You have to combine them all to be a success at bb’ing.
I think it all comes down to intelligent use of a number of variables (training, nutrition, PEDs etc). Any over-reliance or dependance on just one certainly isn’t going to yield the same results as the competitor who realizes how best to use all of them in conjunction.
I’ve seen many people complain about how the physiques today don’t compare favorably to those of the 1990’s. Based SOLELY on my own opinion formed from what I’ve seen, who I’ve spoken to, and who I know, I can’t help but feel that there is much more of a reliance on chemical assistance in getting to the stage than in previous eras. Sadly this hasn’t really IN MY OPINION resulted in better physiques.
S
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
[quote]Yogi wrote:
if it was just drugs, then the person taking the most drugs would be the best.
Obviously drugs are necessary at the pro level, but genetics will always be king.[/quote]
and if it were just food, whoever ate the most would win. And if it was just the iron, whoever lifted the most would win. And if it were just genetics, then the iron and the food and the drugs wouldn’t matter at all.
You have to combine them all to be a success at bb’ing.
[/quote]
yes, and everyone does combine all of those things, which is why genetics - the one thing people can’t control - is king.
So then what are you arguing? The topic is whether the drugs are a finishing touch or a part of the foundation to bodybuilding success. Nobody said they were the sole, or even the most important, factor in the game.
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
So then what are you arguing? The topic is whether the drugs are a finishing touch or a part of the foundation to bodybuilding success. Nobody said they were the sole, or even the most important, factor in the game. [/quote]
what are YOU arguing? Hmm? Hmm?
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Water and carb manipulation, tanning, posing, etc are finishing touches. Drugs are part of the foundation to success.[/quote]
I’d say that more accurately describes the situation.[/quote]
I’m pretty sure I know what you guys mean, but having ‘drugs’ and ‘foundation’ in the same sentence just does not feel right. “Drugs are an inevitable part of success”? “Drugs can’t be overlooked or ignored on the path to success”?[/quote]
Remember we are talking about Pro Body Building here, and at the Pro level drugs are an absolute must.
When its something you HAVE to do in order to compete, its foundational. No one is going to be competitive if they JUST do steroids and dont train and eat well, but the drugs are absolutely necessary and without them Pro BBing would look very different.[/quote]
True, for sure, it’s an inherent part of the sport. The tricky part, which might actually be tangential to this particular thread, is when guys say “I totally wanna compete and be a pro bodybuilder”, so they start AAS because ‘that’s what pro bodybuilder’s do’, but they never get around to actually competing. (Okay yeah, re-reading that, I think that’s probably a hijack from the main topic. Whoops.)
Like the old school guys were saying how back in the day, you’d get super-built, compete a bit with a legit “bodybuilder’s body”, not just a gym body (maybe that’s the same as reaching “natural genetic potential” or whatever), and then you’d flip the proverbial ace card and start AAS in order to go even further in the sport. That’s why I hesitated to call it “foundational” - because I think that implies “crucial from day one.”
That’s a good point, and definitely sage advice. Going right back to my first post; if you take a guy who lacks proportion and symmetry, doesn’t have much potential for natural growth, and doesn’t know what he’s doing as far as training and nutrition; if you put him on aas, he’s still going nowhere.
My opinion is that drug use changes the game. Drug using bodybuilders are not working with the same body as natural ones. The responses to training are not the same, the stimulus that is optimal might not work for the other and vice versa.
People think that drugs simply enhance the response to training… for example if you gain 2% size on a program naturally you’ll gain 10% with drugs.
IT DOESN’T WORK LIKE THAT. Drugs change your physiology. Drug using bodybuilders, especially those who abuse everything like steroids, GH, insulin, etc. essentially are working with a completely different body that will have completely different responses to training.
That doesn’t guarantee a great physique, I’ve know plenty of abuses who barely looked average. You still have to put in the work to stimulate optimal gains. But things that work for a drug-using bodybuilder will not necessarily work for a natural.
IMHO this is the biggest negative effect of drugs. Of course there are the health issues, but that is a personal choice. The biggest drawback is that someone who used drugs for a long time might have developed a way to train that will not work when he decides to stop. By the same token the type of training that works great for a pro bodybuilder might mislead drug-free lifters. You CAN learn from pro bodybuilders, but you gotta keep in mind that their physiology is different which will cause their body to react to training differently.
As far as drug being the finishing touch… for some it might be for others it’s a game changer. Those with incredible genetics… those who can build truly amazing physiques without drugs can get very far naturally and then get just a little extra that put them to national level. For these people it is “just the finishing touch”. I have worked with a pro bodybuilder who is “off” 6-8 months per year…during that time he lose a bit of hardness, maybe 5lbs and some strength, but still looks amazing. Of course he is not a mass monster (for these guys drugs ARE the difference) he competes as s 212, but was good enough to beat Meadows 
There are those who do not respond well to anabolics… guys who can use grams per week and not see that much difference. There are bad responders to any type of substances. For these guys “drugs are just the finishing touch” too but for a different reason: drugs don’t give them the crazy gains that good responders get.
But as far as bodybuilding is concerned, especially modern bodybuilding drugs have, sadly become much more than a finishing touch, especially with today’s mass monsters. Arnold was about 225 at 6’1", Zane was about 180 in contest shape… a far cry from those who are 270-300 on 5’8" 5’11".
Users of AAS tend to minimize the effects of drugs. Non-users tend to magnify them.
This is one reason you have so many:
pro bodybuilders who train “wrong” (limited ROM, always cheating, minimal awareness of anatomy, still believe Leg Extenions will “carve striations” into their thighs, etc.), yet remain certain they have incredible training knowledge because of their physiques
fans who attribute the success of a steroid-using athlete entirely to “cheating,” and yet naively believe the ones who didn’t get caught are clean. Thus the frequent ignorant comments (“It’s all drugs.” “They just took a shortcut” etc.) from average people who believe the only thing that separates them from athletic greatness is a pill. I’m thinking specifically of the clip of Joe Biden included in the movie Bigger, Stronger, Faster (in which Biden ridiculously accuses Canseco and other baseball steroid users of beating out guys like him, not by actually being better, but just by cheating their way into the majors).
I like how Louie Simmons put it in his interview in the same movie: “Steroid users train harder than non-users.”
…BUT I believe that’s mainly true of guys at the upper levels of sports, people for whom the drug is a means - one of many means - to an end that isn’t purely ego-gratification. There are definitely AAS users who train very hard, but there are also thousands of recreational users for whom drugs are a shortcut: guys who use too early, never building anything on their own; who train like fools, never bothering to research or seek advice, and then strut around the gym or nightclub like douchebags, as if they own the place.
[quote]fama wrote:
Users of AAS tend to minimize the effects of drugs. Non-users tend to magnify them.
…
I like how Louie Simmons put it in his interview in the same movie: “Steroid users train harder than non-users.”
[/quote]
You nailed it with so much of this. Especially the first 2 sentences. Calling steroids the ‘finishing touch’ is absolute fucking garbage. The ‘ace in the hole’ thing is garbage. It’s an absolute staple for high level lifters and pro bodybuilders. As CT said, it’s a true game changer.
People reference the Dave Tate video a lot to justify the claim that AAS only do so much. What he’s saying sounds great. He talks about how AAS will only make you a little better, that they’ll essentially only bring you to 1 level above where you were at, maybe add about 10% to what you were.
My little experience has already shown me this is not the case. I added 20%+ to all my lifts in the span of a few months, after having trained on and off for over a decade. I was stalled at a 405 max squat for over a year naturally. With AAS, I got to a 515 competition squat in the span of 4 months, and my other big lifts improved similarly. That’s 2 cycles, and it’s with a minimal amount of AAS. And my training wasn’t even that consistent, compared to what many people do. I trained HARD, but with a baby at home, I didn’t always get in more than 2 or 3 gym sessions in a week.
This is not a finishing touch. This brought me from a middling lifter to an Elite one. I don’t look like the same person I did a year ago. I don’t have such an ego that I can’t admit these things. Do I train hard in the gym? Fuck yea. I bring more intensity than almost anyone I’ve seen training. But that doesn’t mean the drugs are anything but an absolute game changer.
I think I train harder since I started using drugs. When I’m on, I train as hard as I can to get the most out of the drugs, and when I’m off I’m busting my ass to maintain or improve on what I had when I was on (gains between cycles are slow but they do still come).
It’s like I have more to lose now if I slack off in my training.