Drug Wars, Drug Laws, Legalization, Decriminalization

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Another thing to consider about legalization that I almost NEVER hear advocates of it acknowledge:

How do you think these Mexican cartels who sneak growers into America and set up grow operations in national forests/parks like the one that got popped a few months back up here in Shasta Forest will react? We’re seeing what the reaction of these cartels are when their revenue stream is threatened; that violence will only grow worse if we legalize it and it will spill even further over our borders.[/quote]

Just like the mob did with the repeal of prohibition. After prohibition was lifted the crime rate plummeted. The same will happen with drugs. If the cartels lose their sources of revenue how are they going to afford to carry out any of their operation? I suppose your scenario of sneaking growers doesn’t cost anything?

22

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]OGC wrote:
There are too many issues surrounding legalizing it that aren’t being taken into consideration by “weekend-warrior-activists” (no offense to anyone), such as;

  • Who would cultivate the plants?
  • Would it be sold by private, public or Government sectors?
  • What would the rules, procedures and laws be surrounding the above listed information?
  • Drug dealers would still exist and sell more impure, and possibly more dangerous, versions of drugs in order to compete.
  • How would other crime be affected?
  • Where would the distribution zones/stores be located and what would it do for surrounding property value?
  • Who, or what body, would enforce the legislation?

There are plenty more to list, but above is food-for-thought on a larger scale.[/quote]

  1. Who cultivates tobacco?
  2. Who sells tobacco?
  3. What are the rule, procedures and laws surrounding alcohol… and tobacco?
  4. Surprisingly few pot heads transition onto harder drugs. This argument is a straw man. If given a choice between buying bathtub moonshine and a bottle of vodka from the store, which will people pick?
  5. People who do transition from pot to harder drugs do so because the same people who currently sell pot will also try to offer you meth or something stupid. Crime will go down.
  6. Where are the distribution zones/stores for alcohol and tobacco?
  7. Who, or what body enforces tobacco and alcohol legislation?[/quote]

Your assertions about weed, hard drugs and dealers are completely hysterical and sound like something that someone who hasn’t had a whole lot of experience with drugs of any kind would say.

[/quote]

Hysterical? Your assertions about my post sound like you’re trying so hard to sound intelligent.

23

[quote]OGC wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

  1. Licensed growers.
  2. Government licensed ‘pharmacies’.
  3. As with alcohol.
  4. I guess people still make, sell and buy moonshine, but is that really a problem?
  5. I’m sure crime stats will go down.
  6. The same rules that apply for liquor stores could apply here.
  7. ATF?[/quote]

The issue with marijuana is it’s role in drug trade within North America and all the facets associated and surrounded by it.

The clarify my main point, I’ll use the following real life example/issue:

British Columbia, Canada, has the most sought after marijuana in the world. Miami, United States, is the Cocaine capital within North America. The value of B.C. marijuana is higher than cocaine in Miami and Miami cocaine is worth more than marijuana in B.C.

As a result, there are straight trades between Miami and B.C. for each of their “home” drugs.

With the amount of money floating between the international trafficking, there are without a doubt a lot of firearm smuggling, human body smuggling and death directly associated with it.

I understand that majority of marijuana users are harmless to say the least, however, the issues behind it’s origins are what I’m looking at.

To use a “cookie cutter” approach in it’s legalization will not work. [/quote]

What people like you don’t seem to realize is that we already have a real world scenario where the results can be extrapolated to predict what will happen with Marijuana. It’s called Prohibition. Look it up, look up the effects and what happened when it was repealed.

Your language “without a doubt” etc. suggests you are talking shit.

24

Don’t let them bust your balls , we all know they have nothing else to do except comment on posts like this :slight_smile: We agree the war on drugs was lost after Richard Nixon started it

25

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Another thing to consider about legalization that I almost NEVER hear advocates of it acknowledge:

How do you think these Mexican cartels who sneak growers into America and set up grow operations in national forests/parks like the one that got popped a few months back up here in Shasta Forest will react? We’re seeing what the reaction of these cartels are when their revenue stream is threatened; that violence will only grow worse if we legalize it and it will spill even further over our borders.[/quote]

Just like the mob did with the repeal of prohibition. After prohibition was lifted the crime rate plummeted. The same will happen with drugs. If the cartels lose their sources of revenue how are they going to afford to carry out any of their operation? I suppose your scenario of sneaking growers doesn’t cost anything?
[/quote]

It’s funny you mention that. I was just thinking earlier today that in reality, cartels probably don’t make a majority of their money from weed. Cocaine and heroin and that sort of thing is probably a much bigger money maker for them, so they may just kind of “let the weed go” if it becomes legalized. It won’t be worth the investment for them anymore. But I don’t think this will really cause a very noticeable drop in crime rate.

26

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Don’t let them bust your balls , we all know they have nothing else to do except comment on posts like this :slight_smile: We agree the war on drugs was lost after Richard Nixon started it [/quote]

You and I have very little in common when it comes to our views on drugs, the war on it, its enforcement and the effect this war has on society. This weed thing may be one of them, but please don’t associate me with some of the other bullshit I’ve heard you post on here about the war on drugs.

27

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Another thing to consider about legalization that I almost NEVER hear advocates of it acknowledge:

How do you think these Mexican cartels who sneak growers into America and set up grow operations in national forests/parks like the one that got popped a few months back up here in Shasta Forest will react? We’re seeing what the reaction of these cartels are when their revenue stream is threatened; that violence will only grow worse if we legalize it and it will spill even further over our borders.[/quote]

Just like the mob did with the repeal of prohibition. After prohibition was lifted the crime rate plummeted. The same will happen with drugs. If the cartels lose their sources of revenue how are they going to afford to carry out any of their operation? I suppose your scenario of sneaking growers doesn’t cost anything?
[/quote]

It’s funny you mention that. I was just thinking earlier today that in reality, cartels probably don’t make a majority of their money from weed. Cocaine and heroin and that sort of thing is probably a much bigger money maker for them, so they may just kind of “let the weed go” if it becomes legalized. It won’t be worth the investment for them anymore. But I don’t think this will really cause a very noticeable drop in crime rate.[/quote]

True, but you won’t have people with talents and are decent folk unable to find a traditional professional job because they had a plant in their house if it’s legalized or decriminalized. That’s my biggest problem with marijuana laws.

28

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Another thing to consider about legalization that I almost NEVER hear advocates of it acknowledge:

How do you think these Mexican cartels who sneak growers into America and set up grow operations in national forests/parks like the one that got popped a few months back up here in Shasta Forest will react? We’re seeing what the reaction of these cartels are when their revenue stream is threatened; that violence will only grow worse if we legalize it and it will spill even further over our borders.[/quote]

Just like the mob did with the repeal of prohibition. After prohibition was lifted the crime rate plummeted. The same will happen with drugs. If the cartels lose their sources of revenue how are they going to afford to carry out any of their operation? I suppose your scenario of sneaking growers doesn’t cost anything?
[/quote]

It’s funny you mention that. I was just thinking earlier today that in reality, cartels probably don’t make a majority of their money from weed. Cocaine and heroin and that sort of thing is probably a much bigger money maker for them, so they may just kind of “let the weed go” if it becomes legalized. It won’t be worth the investment for them anymore. But I don’t think this will really cause a very noticeable drop in crime rate.[/quote]

Over 800,000 people get arrested for marijuana every year. 90% of that is simple possession. How would the crime rate not drop if legalized?

As for the cartels, the government reports cartels make 60% of their profits from marijuana. Here is a little known fact, Mexico doesn’t produce it own heroin or cocaine. They take all the marijuana profits and use it to buy the cocaine etc from producer countries in S. America and then resell it.

29

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]OGC wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

  1. Licensed growers.
  2. Government licensed ‘pharmacies’.
  3. As with alcohol.
  4. I guess people still make, sell and buy moonshine, but is that really a problem?
  5. I’m sure crime stats will go down.
  6. The same rules that apply for liquor stores could apply here.
  7. ATF?[/quote]

The issue with marijuana is it’s role in drug trade within North America and all the facets associated and surrounded by it.

The clarify my main point, I’ll use the following real life example/issue:

British Columbia, Canada, has the most sought after marijuana in the world. Miami, United States, is the Cocaine capital within North America. The value of B.C. marijuana is higher than cocaine in Miami and Miami cocaine is worth more than marijuana in B.C.

As a result, there are straight trades between Miami and B.C. for each of their “home” drugs.

With the amount of money floating between the international trafficking, there are without a doubt a lot of firearm smuggling, human body smuggling and death directly associated with it.

I understand that majority of marijuana users are harmless to say the least, however, the issues behind it’s origins are what I’m looking at.

To use a “cookie cutter” approach in it’s legalization will not work. [/quote]

What people like you don’t seem to realize is that we already have a real world scenario where the results can be extrapolated to predict what will happen with Marijuana. It’s called Prohibition. Look it up, look up the effects and what happened when it was repealed.

Your language “without a doubt” etc. suggests you are talking shit.[/quote]

I have extensive legal professional experience and knowledge of importing and exporting controlled substances.

To base an opinion on the phrase “without a doubt” is comical. Predictions are theory based on factual history or supported by some other physical evidence.

One of the major issues surrounding citing history as a source is how much we’ve changed as a civilization. The variables are unaccounted for, therefore citing Prohibition as a ‘real world’ example can be challenged on multiple levels.

30

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Another thing to consider about legalization that I almost NEVER hear advocates of it acknowledge:

How do you think these Mexican cartels who sneak growers into America and set up grow operations in national forests/parks like the one that got popped a few months back up here in Shasta Forest will react? We’re seeing what the reaction of these cartels are when their revenue stream is threatened; that violence will only grow worse if we legalize it and it will spill even further over our borders.[/quote]

Just like the mob did with the repeal of prohibition. After prohibition was lifted the crime rate plummeted. The same will happen with drugs. If the cartels lose their sources of revenue how are they going to afford to carry out any of their operation? I suppose your scenario of sneaking growers doesn’t cost anything?
[/quote]

It’s funny you mention that. I was just thinking earlier today that in reality, cartels probably don’t make a majority of their money from weed. Cocaine and heroin and that sort of thing is probably a much bigger money maker for them, so they may just kind of “let the weed go” if it becomes legalized. It won’t be worth the investment for them anymore. But I don’t think this will really cause a very noticeable drop in crime rate.[/quote]

Over 800,000 people get arrested for marijuana every year. 90% of that is simple possession. How would the crime rate not drop if legalized?

As for the cartels, the government reports cartels make 60% of their profits from marijuana. Here is a little known fact, Mexico doesn’t produce it own heroin or cocaine. They take all the marijuana profits and use it to buy the cocaine etc from producer countries in S. America and then resell it.[/quote]

Obviously I’m talking about a drop beyond the drop we would see if weed were legalized. Of course crime rates would drop if no one got arrested for weed possession, but even by your numbers, that drop wouldn’t be very large. According to numberof.net there are more than 14 million arrests made each year, so even eliminating 720,000 isn’t a big drop. And I’m referring to a drop in other crimes anyways.

I will say this though: according to the same sight, there are more than 1.8 million drug arrests made each year, so legalization will certainly significantly reduce that number.

31

1g of cocaine in Northern France before Holland’s legalization : 150+ euros.
1g of cocaine in Northern France after Holland’s legalization : 40 euros.

drug dealers won’t search and find legal jobs.
they will just make their other products more available.
with lower costs and higher volumes.

32

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Don’t let them bust your balls , we all know they have nothing else to do except comment on posts like this :slight_smile: We agree the war on drugs was lost after Richard Nixon started it [/quote]

You and I have very little in common when it comes to our views on drugs, the war on it, its enforcement and the effect this war has on society. This weed thing may be one of them, but please don’t associate me with some of the other bullshit I’ve heard you post on here about the war on drugs.[/quote]

I do not know who you are ? I promise not to associate you with anything

33

[quote]kamui wrote:

they will just make their other products more available.
[/quote]

So what? You have to have a demand to have people buy it. Cartels and dealers can’t force people to buy their stuff.

34

Most pot dealers would have to back back to working at McDonalds.

35

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Obviously I’m talking about a drop beyond the drop we would see if weed were legalized. Of course crime rates would drop if no one got arrested for weed possession, but even by your numbers, that drop wouldn’t be very large. According to numberof.net there are more than 14 million arrests made each year, so even eliminating 720,000 isn’t a big drop. And I’m referring to a drop in other crimes anyways.

I will say this though: according to the same sight, there are more than 1.8 million drug arrests made each year, so legalization will certainly significantly reduce that number.[/quote]

I’m not seeing how taking 720,000 people out of an already over taxed system is a bad thing.

36

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

they will just make their other products more available.
[/quote]

So what? You have to have a demand to have people buy it. Cartels and dealers can’t force people to buy their stuff.[/quote]

oh yes, i suppose we can always consider the addict / dealer relationship as just another “rational buyer / rational seller” relationship.

this myth is already so overused it can probably bear another cynical abuse.

37

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

they will just make their other products more available.
[/quote]

So what? You have to have a demand to have people buy it. Cartels and dealers can’t force people to buy their stuff.[/quote]

oh yes, i suppose we can always consider the addict / dealer relationship as just another “rational buyer / rational seller” relationship.

this myth is already so overused it can probably bear another cynical abuse.

[/quote]

Yeah cause when alcohol was legalized the mob stepped up production of bathtub gin and moonshine, and the demand for those went up with it. Sure makes a whole lot of sense. I mean those alcoholics would rather buy from armed criminals with adulterated products, then the friendly neighborhood grocery store with a regulated product.

38

alcohol was in use for millenias before the Prohibition, and it was an integral part of our culture.
the vast majority of users were and are not addicts.

you can’t compare that with heroine and cocaine. or even with cannabis.

when alcohol was legalized again the mob kept selling other illegal products, and they did it more aggressively in order to compensate for the loss.

drug dealers will do exactly the same if cannabis is legalized on a large scale.
they will sell off hard drugs cheaply.

this doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it but at least we should be prepared to suffer the consequences.

39

[quote]kamui wrote:
alcohol was in use for millenias before the Prohibition, and it was an integral part of our culture.
the vast majority of users were and are not addicts.

you can’t compare that with heroine and cocaine. or even with cannabis.

when alcohol was legalized again the mob kept selling other illegal products, and they did it more aggressively in order to compensate for the loss.

drug dealers will do exactly the same if cannabis is legalized on a large scale.
they will sell off hard drugs cheaply.

this doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it but at least we should be prepared to suffer the consequences. [/quote]

Would you buy heroin if it were 5 dollars a gram , I would not. I do not think (MANY) normal people would

40

i know for a fact than some of my 15-20 yo students would retry it if it was easily available and 5 dollar a gram.

i say “retry” because some of them already tried it.

dealers are not stupids, the “first times” are often free.