T Nation

Drop Snatch - Vertical Jump

[quote]Velvet Revolver wrote:
Jumanji wrote:
Velvet Revolver~

There are many collegiate strength coaches who agree with you totally…

In the lower collegiate ranks, I know many, many dopey white guys who clean all the time and do the prescribed plyo program who might disagree with that assessment…


The thing about plyo’s though is that you only get results if you go 110 percent. I mean you can NOT half ass it. You have to go balls out, as absolutely intense as you can. You Have to perform every jump as fast and as quick as you can.


It’s my understanding you should only use plyo’s for short blocks, say 2-3 weeks. I want to say I read that in Zatsiorski or some old soviet literature. Any thoughts?

[quote]wufwugy wrote:
ive got a question for Colin and Jumanji cuz i assume you guys know the answer.

should a running one-legged VJ be higher than a standing two-legged VJ?[/quote]

depends on the person, but bodyweight has a lot to do with it since one legged jumps are largely tapping on involuntary strength

when I was 155lbs I prefered to jump off one leg. Later on when I was 190-200lbs my 2 legged jumps and one legged running jumps were around the same. When I got a lot stronger, and heavier my 2 legged jump variations were quite a bit higher, but my one legged jump regressed due to extra bodyweight

I know of others like that who had awesome one legged jumps, but when they got heavier and stronger, they could jump just as well with 2legs, but the one legged jump went downhill fast. Gotta stay light when you want to utilise reactive strength effeciently

There is one person I saw many years ago at a BBall court that probably bucked that trend. This guy was about 5’8" - 5’9" built like a BB’er and was fairly lean, 200+lbs. Pure mesomorph. He could grab the ring off a one step VJ - about 36 inches, short arms. But off a run when he tried to dunk it off a one legged jump he got the middle of his forearm on the rim, but missed the dunk! That would be about 44-45inches. That’s the highest jump I’ve seen in person, still remeber it vividly!
Turns out he was an ex state level BBall player, who took a year off to bodybuild :stuck_out_tongue:
He was bombing long shots and 3s from all over the court like nothing…!

[quote]Jumanji wrote:

Nice. I thought I must have been wrong about your numbers… you can still get stronger… much.

Ben didn’t snap out of those blocks because he squatted 1.9X his BW…more like 4-5X…

Obviously that is all of our goal…

You are right about the bodyweight… huge factor… all strength is relative.

Keep up the good work.


Well Ben was on drugs, so that would help a ton :wink:

My legs and glutes are naturally quite big. I have huge legs for my frame, you would think I have a 500lb fullsquat by looking at em, I just don’t know if I can get much stronger without having excessive musclemass becoming too much of an issue. Muscle piles on real easy on my legs and hips. Pic here… :slight_smile:

I’m probably at a point of diminishing returns anyway, plus after a few years of chaining myself to the gym, it’s about time I got around out there and jumped and ran a bit! That’s why I did all the stuff I did this year and the last - improve movement effeciency!!!

That’s one reason why my feet, ankles and lower legs are so weak relative to my legs/hips and bodyweight - causing me a lot of shin splints and such, but I’m finally ontop of it now.

I’m getting more mileage out of dropping the fat anyway, so far I’m gaining an 1 inch on my jump very 2lbs I drop. So with another 25lbs to melt off, things look promising :wink:

You say that you don’t know if you can get much stronger without adding more muscle mass. This is just a suggestion but maybe you should look into doing concentric only deadlifts at low volume with no eccentric by dropping the bar once you finish the pull like Barry Ross uses with his sprinters. Just a thought.

[quote]Hrastnik wrote:

I wanted to write an explanation, but I think this is better:-)[/quote]


that is a cool site.

thanks guys. it seems that if reaction is balanced with strength then one-legged VJ will be higher.


Good suggestion.


Yeah, you are a big kid naturally. Your soft tissue issues will also be easier to control as you lose the weight. Plus, if you are doing quite a bit of reactive work, your soft tissue is getting in shape…

Ever been in a DII or DIII training room… full of soft tissue issues…

slightly high BF% and took the summer off instead of condiditoning their tissues to be ready for the season…

Keep up the effort… I cannot wait for the video of you at 180, dunking at will.


wufwugy - not necessarily

there are guys with 36inch standing VJ, who can’t jump much higher off one leg, but jump 44 inches from 3 steps jumping off 2 legs. I know of one sprinter like that and a high jumper

or others like Michael Jordan who have a 36inch standing VJ, but get up 10 inches higher with a running one leg jump.

And others who have high standing VJ, but don’t get much higher off a run on either 2 or one leg takeoffs.

And yet all types would be considered elite level athletic ability. Shows the differences in body structure and technique accounting for the results etc


Maybe even run the 100m in the low to mid 10 secs… 25lbs is a lot of weight to drop off…and I’m running around the 11sec mark now
I definitely never thought I could run this fast!!

Putting more force into the ground in a shorter period of time, that’s what’s it’s all about

Hi there,

I’ve been using DB Hammer’s system for around months now. I’m using this template:

Block 1
(1) Session 1: Heavy Eccentrics (N x 5-9 seconds. Control as much weight as possible with a soft touch down to support pins/apparatus.)
(2) Session 2: Iso-Miometrics (N x 6-10 reps. 3 second iso-pause between each positive contraction. Emphasis on acceleration out of pause- EXPLODE!)

Block 2
(1) Session 1: Max Miometrics (N x 1 rep. Bar lifted from rested position at mid-point of movement. Stress the reduction of time between when you begin to apply force to the bar and when the bar actually begins to move! BLAST it up!)
(2) Session2: Oscillatory-Isometrics (N x 25-40 seconds. Focus on achieving as much tension as possible before you strive for as much relaxation as possible. Rebound action should come with minimal effort. Flex?release?spring!)

I can do MIO back squats with 170 lbs and Heavy Eccentric back squats with 190 lbs. My weight is 146 lbs and i’m 5"8.

I was wondering if I should move on to a power template or continue until I’m able to squat 280 lbs which would give me a positive AW on squatting using MAG methods?

If i wait for my squat to be 280 lbs, it’ll take me approximately 3-5 months for that to happen with 10 lbs increments every session. Don’t you think this would be too long tostay on an Absolute strenth template?

I would keep going, but make sure your either playing your sport, practising it or maintaining movement effeciency

or else it’s be a long road back…

if your moving around and doing stuff, the strength gains will partially transfer through

Hi CoolColj,

Yup, I regularly play bball 2x a week and I do one day of sprint training and another for agility.

I noticed when I switched from a Westside template into doing one of DB’s upperbody workouts at the end of the Sports Book, my shooting range improved and I actually added more muscle. I thought I’d lose some of my hypertrophy gains when i switched into ISO’s for the upperbody.

I used to follow a Westside template and th 5x5 method for training but when I read DB’s article about how too much squatting can hurt power development, I dropped it. I think I’m gaining more explosiveness now with my first step and acceleration with DB’s workout rather than the ole 5x5 method.

I just needed to ask if I’m headed in the right direction because I was already tempting to move to the power template eventhough I didn’t have the appropriate strength yet. Thanks.

Colin is doing a great job and hopefully will be dipping under 200, feeling great, and flying horizontally and vertically soon :slight_smile:

I built up a very thin but tall frame into a pretty well built and strong body with a few years of weight lifting. I was able to jump above average off of 2 feet from a standing start or a single drop step, but jumped substantially lower off one leg from a run (did I mention I did no sprinting while lifting weights for those few years?). And this is a kid who was no a high jumping prodigy but definitely a one leg jumper at a younger age.

Demonspeed - As an athlete regularly practicing your sport and doing some soft tissue maintenance, you should be able to get the reactive work you need from the game and just focus on getting stronger for quite a while. In my own case, I completely neglected the sport while focusing on lifting and only came back to realize I could suddenly jump much higher on a whim.

I brushed off the need for any soft tissue work completely until the last year. Big mistake. Don’t do it. Buy a foam roller and a stick. Keep your rotator cuffs healthy. Don’t wear cross country shoes to play basketball.

“Throw some of the baggage overboard and keep pushing some big weight from time to time…”

I like that line, jumanji. Back to finish Barry’s book later this afternoon.


The structure and gait will also influence the ability to jump with various styles. For example you won’t find any guys who walk with an excessive heel to toe dorsiflexed posture who can do much off a unilateral jump.

[quote]I like that line, jumanji. Back to finish Barry’s book later this afternoon.


Are you referring to Barry Ross’s book? If so, what do you think of it?

[quote]Kelly Baggett wrote:
The structure and gait will also influence the ability to jump with various styles. For example you won’t find any guys who walk with an excessive heel to toe dorsiflexed posture who can do much off a unilateral jump.[/quote]

could you expound, please? how you walk in non-athletic circumstances affects how you run and jump in athletic circumstances? is structure and gait trainable or is it genetic and learned in childhood? why does excessive heel to toe dorsiflexion affect unilateral jump and not bilateral? what’s excessive dorsiflexion?

i have many questions, just hope you’ll expand on your comments.

I’m not trying to bash Ben at all, but do you think Ben squatted to paralell? His squat numbers are ridiculous even with drugs.

[quote]poper wrote:
I’m not trying to bash Ben at all, but do you think Ben squatted to paralell? His squat numbers are ridiculous even with drugs.[/quote]

Charlie Francis has stated that Ben’s best was 600X6 to at least parallel, possibly lower, and with (i think) squat suit and/or knee wraps. i came across him posting this on his site a year or so ago. probably deleted now…

edit to add: i think that was a 185 pounds.

also, they never tested Ben’s VJ. bummer.


[quote]poper wrote:
I’m not trying to bash Ben at all, but do you think Ben squatted to paralell? His squat numbers are ridiculous even with drugs.[/quote]

He wasn’t squatting no 5 times his bw.

Ben Johnson is what results when you take an athlete who was an absolute freak to begin with, put him under one of the best sprint coaches ever and give him drugs to put him over the top. I wouldn’t be surprised if he could leap small buildings in a single bound.