T Nation

Dr Wants to Add Nolvadex to My TRT Protocol


#1

Tried to PM this to a member but I don't think it worked....KSman hopefully you and others can help me out here....

Well I'm a month into my HGH @ 1iu/day and sadly no real noticeable changes....that said, I'm told it can take a couple months. I think that 1iu/day is probably too low. How are others doing on similar doses?

A have a question for you...My Doc put me on Nolvadex. I was confused and asked him why Arimidex and Nolvadex and thought I would be taking the Nolv instead of the Arim.(His rationale below)

"Thanks XXXX but these work on different mechanisms, the arimdex is a aromatase blocker and the nolvadex is a SERM, which means it helps stimulate testosterone and prevent your body form becoming to sensitized to the HCG. So we will be taking them both for at least 3 months"

Any thoughts on this? I thought I read somewhere that taking both was a bad idea...He said that taking Hcg for 2 yrs non stop was an issue.
Thx

PS he is a Naturopath


Long Term SERM Use and Coming Off
#2

It took 6 weeks for hGH to work for me. I made a hGH post yesterday.

0.9iu/day took me to IGF-1=204

You can take hCG+SERM ONLY IF both are small doses. Too much of either or combined effect will overload the LH receptors and create T–>E2 levels in the testes that AI cannot control.

And LH from SERM plus hCG can desensitize the LH receptors. Do not know what doc is thinking. Probably no research, but perhaps another TRT doc has this idea that he picked up.

Alternating makes a lot more sense to me.

SERM’s increase E2, AI can help you maintain better E2 levels. SERM’s only protect some “selected” tissues and others would see the E2 levels. SERM+AI is a good idea. hCG also increased E2. Both from increased serum T levels. But if hCG or SERM–>LH pushes ITT too high, T–>E2 inside the testes gets out of control.


#3

Ok sorry but I’m completely lost KSman…at first it seemed like you were saying combining the two was a bad idea then you said “SERM + AI is a good idea”.

FYI, I take .25mg EOD of the Arimidex and the Nolvadex he has prescribed at 20mg/day …I still take hCG 250 EOD with my Test.

So is this a bad idea? What should I change if anything?

***He also prescribed Isocort (for my adrenals)…any thoughts?


#4

My bad, fixed it.

Too much LH receptor action can create the high ITT and E2 that AI will not control. Labs will settle that.

"You can take hCG+SERM ONLY IF both are small doses. Too much of either or combined effect will overload the LH receptors and create T–>E2 levels in the testes that AI cannot control. "

SERM+AI is good SERM’s increase E2.

Isocort: You have read Wilson’s book on “adrenal fatigue”?

So what is your protocol going to be, now I am confused.
T+SERM+hCG+AI? I would do hCG or SERM or a combo of half doses. Can you tell me what doc is trying to do?

Maybe this Naturopath does not have a full understanding.


#5

Protocol would be as follows…

100mg/wk Test Enanthate (split into eod doses sub q)
20mg SERM
1mg AI (split into .25mg eod)
1 iu HGH every day (I have 1 month left of prescription)

*I will follow your advice and forgo the hCG for the 3 months that he has prescribed the SERM.

The Doc figures I might have adrenal fatigue thus the Isocort and the SERM is cuz he thought perhaps I had become too sensitized to the hCG over the last 2 years…and ya maybe he doesn’t understand, I don’t know. I just wasn’t feeling as good as when I started the TRT. Thought the addition of HGH would help (just a shot in the dark because my levels were well above the normal range on my IGF-1 test so I’m not low by any means). Just seems that HGH is helping everyone feel and look younger so that was enough for me.

Your insights as always are much appreciated KSman


#6

Isocort: You have read Wilson’s book on “adrenal fatigue”?

You can also apply small amounts of OTC KAL 2% progesterone to support adrenal progesterone–>cortisol
DHEA may also be useful

Either hCG or SERM will support pregnenolone production in the liver.

What was your IGF-1 lab result? If not low, the benefit is reduced. Example: for my response, IF I had IGF-1=240, taking 1 iu/day would take me close to IGF-1=240; no benefit!

Remember that you should taper out of a SERM. In your case on TRT, your hypothalamus and pituitary will drop out of the game in any case. But there may be other effects to consider that would be seen as mood, libido or energy changes. Well understood? Absolutely not.


#7

I’ve read some of his stuff on the internet but not the whole book yet…so is the Isocort a good idea?

I have tried DHEA in the past and it did nothing for me for what it’s worth…

My IGF-1 results were 6742 (range is 1065-4722) Ya I’m way high which is strange given I’m almost 47. Clearly 1 iu/day is a waste of money right?

*Creatinine was also high at 2.2 (range 0.5-2.0)

Taper out of SERM? I have a 3 month supply so how would I go about this OR should I just throw it the hell away because I’m more confused than ever regarding the Nolvadex at this point.


#8

Recovery from adrenal fatigue takes a long time and if DHEA was helpful, you would not know it in short order. Best to read the book and see if you feel that it is talking about you. Isocort might be useful, sometimes cortef is used during recovery. Maybe your adrenals are OK and the Doc just thinks that Isocort would be good for you. Perhaps he read symptoms. Without cortisol lab data …

Yes, HGH seems odd with those lab numbers.

Do the Nolvadex, just reduce the dose as you end over 7-10 days.


#9

Will read the book :slight_smile: Thx!

I thought the HGH would help with aches and pains(arthritis), sleep, mood, skin etc…all the anti aging stuff. I now think I will just do it when I do a blast in the spring and up it to 3 iu/day range.

Last question…so do the Nolvadex and taper, got it! BUT do I continue to do the hCG while taking the Nolvadex?


#10

Do not combine SERMs [nolvadex, clomid] with hCG because they both lead to LH stimulation and too much is as I described earlier. When Nolvadex is done, resume hCG.


#11

Thx KSman.


#12

KSman From your previous post…

“It took 6 weeks for hCG to work for me. I made a hCG post yesterday.”

Did you mean HGH and not hCG? I was saying that it’s been a month and feeling no difference @ 1 iu HGH/day.
What was the post on HGH? Can’t find it


#13

Wow, I really was tuned out. I was talking about my hGH not hCG and I fixed that post.
The thread that I referenced is here: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_trt/igf1_gh_dose_response_analysis


#14

After reading this post, I am tempted to discontinue my hcg for a short period of time and use Nolvadex instead. Like the author of the post, I have been using hcg as part of my TRT program for a year an a half now. Recently I have had to increas my dosage of hcg in srages from 250 iu eod to 300 and now 350 to get any effect. I used to get a nice full effect in my testicles but not so much any more. My libido goes down when my testicles are not full.

I respond well to T-cyponate with 70 mg weekly divided into eod sub-q injections keeping my total T in the 900’s. I am a hyper responder to Arimidex and really have to be careful when using it so my E doesn’t crash. I am 53 years old. Great labs and no other health issues. Considering 10 to 20 mg nolvadex daily for 3 months with a 1 week taper and discontinuig hcg durring this time.

Maybe I have become desensitized to the hcg? This might be a way of finding out if my body responds well for the three month trial. If so, I could alternate 3 months of nolvadex with 3 months or more of hcg in order to stimulate testicles with different mechanisms. I would appreciate any advice, modifications.


#15

hCG levels are quite steady because of the long half life. If someone was [overly] sensitive to the lack of pulsivity of LH secretion, something like what you describe might be possible. With low dose nolvadex, if your testes respond to that, that would suggest that my guess has merit. SERM’s not only can [does not work for all] restore LH, but the LH is released in pulses. One can also do LH/FSH labs. If your testes physically improve, there really is no need to do labs to know what is happening. If your testes get smaller that would indicate that the top end of the HPTA is broken.

If you are switching back to hCG, there is no need to taper off of the SERM as you are not concerned with an HPTA restart or estrogen rebound. You can simply wait 3 days to start hCG.

With a SERM, not that E2 levels can increase.


#16

Thanks for your well thought out answer to my question Ksman. Would 5 mg 2X daily of Nolvadex be an effective dose for my little experiment? Or, should I double that? Secondly, how long after my last HCG injection should I wait to begin dosing the Nolvadex? Thirdly, how long should it take for me to notice a response after switching over to the Nolvadex? Lastly, if it is effective how long do I continue the Nolvadex before seitching back to the HCG? Thanks again for your input. I see that people value your opinion and expertise on this forum.


#17

rmarganti: Many of these things are not well defined or studied.

You cab start Nolvadex a couple of days after last hCG injection.

Do not see any major merit in taking Nolvadex twice per day. If has a half life of around 8 hours. If you are OK having to take it twice a day, the effect should be better.

As for feeling a change - you might not feel anything. Your testes might show some changes.

Many do well on small dose SERM’s and some overload on full doses with estrogen problems. You need your own thread!


#18

For what it’s worth, I started HGH 6 months ago. I was already on TRT 200 mg per week for 3 months before that… My ‘doctor’ after being threatened, reluctantly gave me a comprehensive blood test not a ‘standard’ one. I hadn’t had señor an erection for 6 years and no matter how hard I worked at the gym, and how few calories I ate, I was getting fatter, lethargic, depressed and weaker.

He was very pissed off when the result showed that my Free Testosterone was almost nil, in spite of the Total T being 484. He sent me to and endo, who refused to treat me because I was 73 and because my Total T was so high, so I started myself after considerable research. The test cyp di nothing for my sex life and I found some articles about HGH, so after 3 months of TRT, I found a cheap source of generic HGH (I guess I’m not allowed to say which one or where I got it from on this forum).

Anyway, I started with 2 IU daily, my IGF-1 was around 90. I’m a pensioner, so it’s a question of cost, I couldn’t really afford 2 IU daily, but after 3 weeks, I suddenly came to life. I started to get erections and I could have sex again. I kept up the 2 IU daily for another 3 weeks and than dropped back to 1 IU daily ever since. I lost 40 kgs of fat, pushed my Bench Press from 55 kg to 125 kg and I think about sex all the time and I have a sizzling sex life again.

I know all the ‘purists’ out there shout down generic HGH and swear by the way too expensive pharma stuff, but I pay 225 euros for 100 IU and it certainly works for me and it definitely ain’t fake. You can shove the high priced shit. I plan to keep 1 IU per day until I can’t get any more HGH or I kick the bucket, whichever comes first.

I had to do a lot of experimenting with the Arimidex. I found that 0.25 mg twice per week (sometimes I only do once per week, it depends on my sex life. If I take too little, libido drops, if I take too much, I can get an erection, but it’s a hell of a job to achieve an orgasm.

I got some tips from another forum about testicles shrinking, so I added 250 IU HCG to my mix, 2 or 3 times per week. Seems to work for me.

I’m now 74, my wife also started with HGH as well, soon after my erections started again. It’s made an incredible difference to both our lives.

I put this little start on here, hoping that it might help others who have similar problems.

GROWING OLD GRACEFULLY IS NOT AN OPTION. I WILL FIGHT IT TO MY LAST BREATH.


#19

Hi Baldur,
Is Somatropin the HGH you are taking abouth? I have read some articles on this GH. It seams to be benificial for recovery, raisins IGF-1 , anti aging and as many more benefits.

Best to you.


#20

I don’t use Doctors. Only for blood tests. The shit they give you just makes things worse. They have no desire to cure you, just alleviate the symptoms so you keep going back for new scripts and new drugs to keep the big phramas and the high street pharmacies in business.

I get my Testosterone, HCG, Arimidex and Aromasin from a UGL. It’ good quality. I know from my blood work. My IGF-1 was 120 when I started 3 years ago. I do just 1 IU per day (it’s all I can afford) and my IGF-1 is now 394.

I’m pretty sure that this is one of those forums that zealously promote ONLY their sponsors, so if I tell you where I get it from it will be deleted and I’ll be banned.

What I can tell you, it isn’t Somatropin, it’s Eurotropin. Now just wait for everyone to tell me that it’s fake and that my IGF-1 went up because the Tooth Fairy went on strike or some other nonsense.

Please flamers and trolls. Don’t waste your time. I KNOW what is good an what is not and you can keep your sponsors opinions to yourself.