Vitamins D, K, A and E are fat soluble.
Overall good advice in this thread. Your doctor makes sense.
[quote]silverhydra wrote:
[quote]benos4752 wrote:
[quote]Doc L wrote:
CLO has high concentrations of Vit A. High doses of Vit A is toxic to the liver. Perhaps this is why your GP suggests you discontinue it. Just a thought.[/quote]
I thought of that as well. But the brand I have in the fridge only has 91% daily value per serving, and I never take more than one serving a day. And from what I’ve read, and could have wrong info here, no problem admitting that possibility, you have to exceed the daily value by almost astronomical amounts to really have any negative effects.[/quote]
Every vitamin is different, for example the toxicity dosage and RDA of vitamin C are world’s apart.
Vitamin A, however, is not so generous. A quick google search (as I don’t have the desire to do more) came up with the following Vitamin A toxicity page mentioning that toxicity lies at 25K IU over a prolonged period of time (fat-soluble build-up?). The RDA is set at around 3-5K IU (dependent on age/gender), so a mere 500% could be toxic over time.
With 91% from fish oil, and some foods being very abundant in vitamin A, it is wholly possible that toxicity symptoms could occur over time.
Attached is said link:
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/126104-overview[/quote]
Yeah, did some quick research on vitamin a toxicity just now. This is what I found.
‘In general, acute toxicity occurs at doses of 25,000 IU/kg of body weight, with chronic toxicity occurring at 4,000 IU/kg of body weight daily for 6â??15 months.[24] However, liver toxicities can occur at levels as low as 15,000 IU per day to 1.4 million IU per day, with an average daily toxic dose of 120,000 IU per day. In people with renal failure, 4000 IU can cause substantial damage. In addition, excessive alcohol intake can increase toxicity.’
Anyone know what the difference is between the chronic toxicity of 4,000 UI/kg body weight and daily toxic dose of 120k IU/kg body weight? They lost me there.
Also, as far as multiple sources of vitamin a go, I found this.
‘These toxicities only occur with preformed (retinoid) vitamin A (such as from liver). The carotenoid forms (such as beta-carotene as found in carrots), give no such symptoms, but excessive dietary intake of beta-carotene can lead to carotenodermia, which causes orange-yellow discoloration of the skin.’
[quote]benos4752 wrote:
[quote]silverhydra wrote:
[quote]benos4752 wrote:
[quote]Doc L wrote:
CLO has high concentrations of Vit A. High doses of Vit A is toxic to the liver. Perhaps this is why your GP suggests you discontinue it. Just a thought.[/quote]
I thought of that as well. But the brand I have in the fridge only has 91% daily value per serving, and I never take more than one serving a day. And from what I’ve read, and could have wrong info here, no problem admitting that possibility, you have to exceed the daily value by almost astronomical amounts to really have any negative effects.[/quote]
Every vitamin is different, for example the toxicity dosage and RDA of vitamin C are world’s apart.
Vitamin A, however, is not so generous. A quick google search (as I don’t have the desire to do more) came up with the following Vitamin A toxicity page mentioning that toxicity lies at 25K IU over a prolonged period of time (fat-soluble build-up?). The RDA is set at around 3-5K IU (dependent on age/gender), so a mere 500% could be toxic over time.
With 91% from fish oil, and some foods being very abundant in vitamin A, it is wholly possible that toxicity symptoms could occur over time.
Attached is said link:
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/126104-overview[/quote]
Yeah, did some quick research on vitamin a toxicity just now. This is what I found.
‘In general, acute toxicity occurs at doses of 25,000 IU/kg of body weight, with chronic toxicity occurring at 4,000 IU/kg of body weight daily for 6â??15 months.[24] However, liver toxicities can occur at levels as low as 15,000 IU per day to 1.4 million IU per day, with an average daily toxic dose of 120,000 IU per day. In people with renal failure, 4000 IU can cause substantial damage. In addition, excessive alcohol intake can increase toxicity.’
Anyone know what the difference is between the chronic toxicity of 4,000 UI/kg body weight and daily toxic dose of 120k IU/kg body weight? They lost me there.
Also, as far as multiple sources of vitamin a go, I found this.
‘These toxicities only occur with preformed (retinoid) vitamin A (such as from liver). The carotenoid forms (such as beta-carotene as found in carrots), give no such symptoms, but excessive dietary intake of beta-carotene can lead to carotenodermia, which causes orange-yellow discoloration of the skin.’
[/quote]
Why are you so focused on this one vitamin? The doc doesn’t know what caused it so trying to tie down the cause before further testing makes little sense.
This is why that saying “a LITTLE knowledge can kill you” holds true.
[quote]benos4752 wrote:
Yeah, did some quick research on vitamin a toxicity just now. This is what I found.
‘In general, acute toxicity occurs at doses of 25,000 IU/kg of body weight, with chronic toxicity occurring at 4,000 IU/kg of body weight daily for 6â??15 months.[24] However, liver toxicities can occur at levels as low as 15,000 IU per day to 1.4 million IU per day, with an average daily toxic dose of 120,000 IU per day. In people with renal failure, 4000 IU can cause substantial damage. In addition, excessive alcohol intake can increase toxicity.’
Anyone know what the difference is between the chronic toxicity of 4,000 UI/kg body weight and daily toxic dose of 120k IU/kg body weight? They lost me there.
Also, as far as multiple sources of vitamin a go, I found this.
‘These toxicities only occur with preformed (retinoid) vitamin A (such as from liver). The carotenoid forms (such as beta-carotene as found in carrots), give no such symptoms, but excessive dietary intake of beta-carotene can lead to carotenodermia, which causes orange-yellow discoloration of the skin.’
In regards to the above numbers, the higher numbers are going to result in quicker toxicity (hence, acute) and the lower numbers resulting in damage over time (chronic).
It’s important to note that most physicians only have a minimal amount of nutrition training. It’s kind of like taking fitness advice from your martial arts instructor; most of them tend to think they know more about it than they actually do.
However, I’m not saying he’s wrong.
In my experience, most of the time the liver functions go back to normal with the next check, and no explanation is ever found. A few things that should be done with your next blood test are a hepatitis panel, a ferritin level (to rule out hemochomotosis- an iron storage disease), and a triglyceride level- if not already done. One of the more common causes of this is steatosis- or “fatty liver”. It can occur in people who are carrying extra fat, and is cured by weight loss. If you are overweight- lose some. Probably not the supplements, but I agree with stopping them for the time being.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]benos4752 wrote:
[quote]silverhydra wrote:
[quote]benos4752 wrote:
[quote]Doc L wrote:
CLO has high concentrations of Vit A. High doses of Vit A is toxic to the liver. Perhaps this is why your GP suggests you discontinue it. Just a thought.[/quote]
I thought of that as well. But the brand I have in the fridge only has 91% daily value per serving, and I never take more than one serving a day. And from what I’ve read, and could have wrong info here, no problem admitting that possibility, you have to exceed the daily value by almost astronomical amounts to really have any negative effects.[/quote]
Every vitamin is different, for example the toxicity dosage and RDA of vitamin C are world’s apart.
Vitamin A, however, is not so generous. A quick google search (as I don’t have the desire to do more) came up with the following Vitamin A toxicity page mentioning that toxicity lies at 25K IU over a prolonged period of time (fat-soluble build-up?). The RDA is set at around 3-5K IU (dependent on age/gender), so a mere 500% could be toxic over time.
With 91% from fish oil, and some foods being very abundant in vitamin A, it is wholly possible that toxicity symptoms could occur over time.
Attached is said link:
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/126104-overview[/quote]
Yeah, did some quick research on vitamin a toxicity just now. This is what I found.
‘In general, acute toxicity occurs at doses of 25,000 IU/kg of body weight, with chronic toxicity occurring at 4,000 IU/kg of body weight daily for 6Ã?¢??15 months.[24] However, liver toxicities can occur at levels as low as 15,000 IU per day to 1.4 million IU per day, with an average daily toxic dose of 120,000 IU per day. In people with renal failure, 4000 IU can cause substantial damage. In addition, excessive alcohol intake can increase toxicity.’
Anyone know what the difference is between the chronic toxicity of 4,000 UI/kg body weight and daily toxic dose of 120k IU/kg body weight? They lost me there.
Also, as far as multiple sources of vitamin a go, I found this.
‘These toxicities only occur with preformed (retinoid) vitamin A (such as from liver). The carotenoid forms (such as beta-carotene as found in carrots), give no such symptoms, but excessive dietary intake of beta-carotene can lead to carotenodermia, which causes orange-yellow discoloration of the skin.’
[/quote]
Why are you so focused on this one vitamin? The doc doesn’t know what caused it so trying to tie down the cause before further testing makes little sense.
This is why that saying “a LITTLE knowledge can kill you” holds true.
[/quote]
You’re def right, someone just mentioned that and my mind kinda got caught up on that haha
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
[quote]benos4752 wrote:
Had some blood tests done earlier this week. Mainly out of curiosity and wanting to be able to add some more trackable data to my weight loss blog. Well, the tests came back yesterday, The only real concern was my liver enzymes. 107 with a reference range of 10-63 (yikes). He told me to stop all drinking and get retested in 6 weeks. I informed him that I almost never drink and last drink I had before the blood tests was a week prior.
So I asked if it could be shitty diet related (still working on getting it under control) and told him what supplements I’m taking, one of which being Cod Liver Oil (this communication is all via e-mail, btw). He told me to stop taking the cod liver oil. I asked for a reason why, since I was using it to get my fatty acids without having to eat fish daily and that I had only began to retake it again two days prior to the tests after months of not touching it, but I don’t think he understood bc his only response was to, again, say stop taking the CLO.
He also felt I was ‘taking far to many supplements’. I take Greens+ with a kelp capsule in the AM, the fish oil sometime in the afternoon, zinc and magnesium before bed, and, the three days-a-week I lift, I take Metabolic Drive afterwards with vitamin C.
Anybody have any thoughts? Should I get a second opinion? Switch from CLO to fish oil? Am I taking to many supplements? [/quote]
Firstly, you don’t say how many CLOs /day you were ingesting, but if it’s more than the recommended dose, I would be wary. Why? Well normally the ‘recommended dose’ is horseshit, only enough to stave off a nutrient deficiency disease.
HOWEVER, the liver is where vertebrates tend to store their fat soluble vitamins A & D. Just ONE BITE of a top carnivores liver (lion, tiger) is enough to cause serious hypervitaminosis A, which is an increadibly painful condition where small bony nodules form under the periosteum of bones.
Now I’m not saying that too many CLO caps will even start to cause this sort of issue. My point is that unlike plain omega 3 caps, you can’t just consume as many CLOs as you like, safely.
There is also the risk of mercury toxicity in CLOs. Now not everyone has an issue with mercury as it’s only about 1/6 people who cannot clear it. You may be one of the 1/6 and you may have poor quality CLO caps that are dropping excess mercury in your system.
That is my opinion.
BBB[/quote]
Good point. I only consume the RDA. One tablespoon. I use the straight liquid vs caps…I don’t think I could stomach more than that with the straight liquid haha
Yeah, I read somewhere that eating polar bear liver is an almost sudden death due to the high levels of vitamin A.
Mercury has my concern as well, I don’t know if I’m one of those 1/6 or not either, but I cut down on tuna a long time ago out of concern and no longer eat swordfish. The brand I buy claims to be heavy metal free, but who knows. Maybe I should just go back to Flameout after all this and just eat some liver lol
[quote]teratos wrote:
In my experience, most of the time the liver functions go back to normal with the next check, and no explanation is ever found. A few things that should be done with your next blood test are a hepatitis panel, a ferritin level (to rule out hemochomotosis- an iron storage disease), and a triglyceride level- if not already done. One of the more common causes of this is steatosis- or “fatty liver”. It can occur in people who are carrying extra fat, and is cured by weight loss. If you are overweight- lose some. Probably not the supplements, but I agree with stopping them for the time being. [/quote]
Losing weight is already my goal as is, so more incentive lol
Why not just take fish oil caps? Also, why the need to have liver? Curious on how it is a positive addition to a diet.
[quote]cally wrote:
Lifting weights also produces a breakdown of tissue that must be filtered through the liver which can in turn cause elevated results. I have had the same problem in the past. Try not working out a few days before and see what results you get [/quote]
This was my first thought as well.
People can overdo it with certain vitamins and cause detrimental side effects but I’m inclined to believe unless the levels are off the charts elevated that it’s more likely to be the normal stress of training versus any issues causing the results. If you take a few days off training and they are STILL elevated then it would be time to start eliminating possible causes to me.
I had a very similar thing happen about a year ago…
Went in for a routine blood test and my liver counts came back 3 times the normal limit…
A lot of supps contains ingredients that will increase your luteininzing hormone (LH) levels, which increase your test production, which will have an increased effect on your liver counts.
The first thing I did was get off all supps for 3 months. The only thing I remained on was my multi-vitamins.
After 3 months I went back in for another test and my liver counts were on the high end of normal, but still normal.
Another month and my counts pretty much remained the same, but one thing that my internist did (my GP had me referred to an internist early on) was schedule me for an ultrasound.
What turned up was a large gallstone in my gallbladder. It doesn’t bother me whatsoever, but there’s a direct correlation between gallstones and high liver counts. For me, this is most likely why my baseline liver count was on the high end of normal, however it didn’t explain the 3 times the normal level liver counts - that was related to supps.
In a nutshell, there’s a number of varying reasons for high liver counts. Your doctor is right, in going off supps for a while and getting more bloodwork done. It’ll help establish a baseline for you. If the liver counts are still through the roof, they’ll most likely schedule a test for hemochomotosis, which teratos suggested, and/or an ultrasound, and/or a liver biopsy, which will rule out fatty liver.
Keep us posted on what your next blood levels are…
[quote]Scott M wrote:
[quote]cally wrote:
Lifting weights also produces a breakdown of tissue that must be filtered through the liver which can in turn cause elevated results. I have had the same problem in the past. Try not working out a few days before and see what results you get [/quote]
This was my first thought as well.
People can overdo it with certain vitamins and cause detrimental side effects but I’m inclined to believe unless the levels are off the charts elevated that it’s more likely to be the normal stress of training versus any issues causing the results. If you take a few days off training and they are STILL elevated then it would be time to start eliminating possible causes to me.
[/quote]
The byproducts of muscle breakdown go through the kidney. Training will not elevate your liver enzymes. The liver enzymes are elevated in response to damage to the liver cells (hepatocytes). With few exceptions, if your liver enzymes are elevated, you have a problem with your liver.
i seem to recall early settlers dying from eskimo type diets, and vitamin A toxicity was the cause.
Obviously the indingeous peoples were able to handle the diet better than the settlers.
[quote]teratos wrote:
[quote]Scott M wrote:
[quote]cally wrote:
Lifting weights also produces a breakdown of tissue that must be filtered through the liver which can in turn cause elevated results. I have had the same problem in the past. Try not working out a few days before and see what results you get [/quote]
This was my first thought as well.
People can overdo it with certain vitamins and cause detrimental side effects but I’m inclined to believe unless the levels are off the charts elevated that it’s more likely to be the normal stress of training versus any issues causing the results. If you take a few days off training and they are STILL elevated then it would be time to start eliminating possible causes to me.
[/quote]
The byproducts of muscle breakdown go through the kidney. Training will not elevate your liver enzymes. The liver enzymes are elevated in response to damage to the liver cells (hepatocytes). With few exceptions, if your liver enzymes are elevated, you have a problem with your liver. [/quote]
I don’t think this is correct. From my own experience strenuous exercise can indeed elevate levels of liver enzymes. I had forgotten about a blood test and played 2 hours of football the day before. My levels were elevated, but had returned to normal when I came in for a follow-up test a few weeks later (no change in diet or anything, btw.)
A quick Google search corroborates this… it seems your ALT and AST levels can be ‘‘mildly elevated’’ by exercise, but GGT should remain unchanged. Thus if your GGT level is also high that may indicate a problem.
I’m not a Dr., but personally I would cut out the CLO for now, as well as alcohol and exercise for the week prior to the follow-up.
[quote]buckrice wrote:
[quote]teratos wrote:
[quote]Scott M wrote:
[quote]cally wrote:
Lifting weights also produces a breakdown of tissue that must be filtered through the liver which can in turn cause elevated results. I have had the same problem in the past. Try not working out a few days before and see what results you get [/quote]
This was my first thought as well.
People can overdo it with certain vitamins and cause detrimental side effects but I’m inclined to believe unless the levels are off the charts elevated that it’s more likely to be the normal stress of training versus any issues causing the results. If you take a few days off training and they are STILL elevated then it would be time to start eliminating possible causes to me.
[/quote]
The byproducts of muscle breakdown go through the kidney. Training will not elevate your liver enzymes. The liver enzymes are elevated in response to damage to the liver cells (hepatocytes). With few exceptions, if your liver enzymes are elevated, you have a problem with your liver. [/quote]
I don’t think this is correct. From my own experience strenuous exercise can indeed elevate levels of liver enzymes. I had forgotten about a blood test and played 2 hours of football the day before. My levels were elevated, but had returned to normal when I came in for a follow-up test a few weeks later (no change in diet or anything, btw.)
A quick Google search corroborates this… it seems your ALT and AST levels can be ‘‘mildly elevated’’ by exercise, but GGT should remain unchanged. Thus if your GGT level is also high that may indicate a problem.
I’m not a Dr., but personally I would cut out the CLO for now, as well as alcohol and exercise for the week prior to the follow-up.[/quote]
I wouldn’t count on this. It is best to assume it is your liver, and rule out everything else. Yes, there have been reports that strenuous exercise can transiently increase liver enzymes. It is reported that they dissipate immediately after exercise, so unless you get your blood work done before you leave the gym, I wouldn’t count on it. GGT does not reliably rule liver disease in or out. You are correct, though, if it is elevated it is more indicative of a problem. Be careful when practicing medicine via google. Usually this is nothing. It is best to look into it. Do what your doctor says.
[quote]teratos wrote:
[quote]buckrice wrote:
[quote]teratos wrote:
[quote]Scott M wrote:
[quote]cally wrote:
Lifting weights also produces a breakdown of tissue that must be filtered through the liver which can in turn cause elevated results. I have had the same problem in the past. Try not working out a few days before and see what results you get [/quote]
This was my first thought as well.
People can overdo it with certain vitamins and cause detrimental side effects but I’m inclined to believe unless the levels are off the charts elevated that it’s more likely to be the normal stress of training versus any issues causing the results. If you take a few days off training and they are STILL elevated then it would be time to start eliminating possible causes to me.
[/quote]
The byproducts of muscle breakdown go through the kidney. Training will not elevate your liver enzymes. The liver enzymes are elevated in response to damage to the liver cells (hepatocytes). With few exceptions, if your liver enzymes are elevated, you have a problem with your liver. [/quote]
I don’t think this is correct. From my own experience strenuous exercise can indeed elevate levels of liver enzymes. I had forgotten about a blood test and played 2 hours of football the day before. My levels were elevated, but had returned to normal when I came in for a follow-up test a few weeks later (no change in diet or anything, btw.)
A quick Google search corroborates this… it seems your ALT and AST levels can be ‘‘mildly elevated’’ by exercise, but GGT should remain unchanged. Thus if your GGT level is also high that may indicate a problem.
I’m not a Dr., but personally I would cut out the CLO for now, as well as alcohol and exercise for the week prior to the follow-up.[/quote]
I wouldn’t count on this. It is best to assume it is your liver, and rule out everything else. Yes, there have been reports that strenuous exercise can transiently increase liver enzymes. It is reported that they dissipate immediately after exercise, so unless you get your blood work done before you leave the gym, I wouldn’t count on it. GGT does not reliably rule liver disease in or out. You are correct, though, if it is elevated it is more indicative of a problem. Be careful when practicing medicine via google. Usually this is nothing. It is best to look into it. Do what your doctor says. [/quote]
‘’…practicing medicine via google’'? Gimme a break. I was just offering my two cents based on my own experience in a similar situation. This is a forum, is it not? Besides, it’s not like I suggested anything contrary to what his doctor had suggested (no more CLO)… I just added that exercise beforehand can throw some numbers off, so it may be better to avoid that as well (that was my doctor’s advice, anyway). And by the way, the levels can stay elevated for days.
[ref] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2125.2007.03001.x/abstract
J. Pettersson et al. (2008), Muscular exercise can cause highly pathological liver function tests in healthy men. British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology, 65: 253-259. doi: 10.1111/j.1365-2125.2007.03001.x