[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
The bottom line is this: yolks contain fat, fat is calorie dense, overeat ANY macronutrient (including fat) and the unused energy is stored as body fat.
y
[/quote]
cept carbs right, there are rarely stored as body fat 
Geez, all macros can be converted to fat. Protein is 58% gluconeogenic for shits sake. Even if it all gets burned, it would still prevent your body from burning other calories - i.e. it still counts. Everyone is so obsessed with maxing out on protein these days, when they can just add more calories.
[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
JMoUCF87 wrote:
The bottom line is this: yolks contain fat, fat is calorie dense, overeat ANY macronutrient (including fat) and the unused energy is stored as body fat.
y
cept carbs right, there are rarely stored as body fat
[/quote]
reread this part of my post over and over until you get it:
"carbs are not stored directly as fat. when you eat a lot of carbs, your body just ramps up carbohydrate oxidation (burning) at the expense of fat oxidation. this means less bodyfat is burned for energy and more dietary fat is stored as bodyfat.
this is not the same as carbs being stored as bodyfat, which, as I’ve stated, rarely ever happens in the real world."
^^^do you see the difference?
saying “carb oxidation blunts the burning of bodyfat and leads to a greater percentage of dietary fat to be stored as bodyfat” IS NOT THE SAME AS “carbs are converted to fat”
think about it this way: 2 people eat a diet of 3,000 calories.
Person A eats 30% PROTEIN, 60% FAT, and 10% CARBS
Person B eats 30% PROTEIN, 60% CARBS, and 10% FAT
Person A eats fewer carbs than Person B. This means Person A will burn MORE bodyfat that person B (good) BUT because Person A eats more dietary fat, this means he will store MORE fat than Person B (bad)
meanwhile, Person B eats more carbs than Person A. This means Person B will burn LESS bodyfat than Person A, because he is burning carbs instead (bad), BUT because Person B eats less dietary fat, this means he will store LESS fat than Person A (good).
In summary, you can do 1 of 2 options:
- eat a high fat/low carb diet and burn more fat (but store more fat, too)
- eat a high carb/low fat diet and burn less fat (but store less fat, too)
so in the end, what determines whether you’re leaner or fatter at the end of the day…CALORIE BALANCE!
/thread
dude, I was messin with ya
thread continue…
[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
dude, I was messin with ya[/quote]
well, yeah I kinda gathered that from the smiley…honestly jehovasfitness, I can never tell with you. your posts seem to go back and forth between “this guy might know what he’s talking about” and “WTF is he thinking?”
anyhow, I figured I’d clarify what I because you know people would take my post as an excuse to eat all the carbs they want and not get fat…and that’s not what I meant at all.
[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
skohcl wrote:
Well if possible I wouldn’t mind if you would expand on your previous statement that ‘carbs are almost NEVER stored as fat in humans.’
Gladly. This is borrowed from a post by author/coach Jamie Hale (I suggest you check out his book “Knowledge and Nonsense”)
“Hellerstein (1999) has pointed out that the de novo lipogenesis is a path of last resort in regards to carbohydrate metabolism. Hellerstein says, â??The pathway for converting dietary carbohydrates into fat, or de novo lipogenesis, is present in humans whereas the capacity to convert fats into CHO does not exist. Eucaloric replacement of dietary fat by CHO does not induce hepatic DNL to any substantial degree. Similarly, addition of CHO to a mixed diet does not increase hepatic DNL to quantitatively important levels as long as CHO energy intake remains less than total energy expenditure. Only when CHO intake exceeds total energy expenditure does DNL in liver or adipose tissue contribute significantly to the whole-body energy economy. In conclusion, DNL is not the pathway of first resort for added dietary CHO in humans. Under most dietary conditions, the two major macronutrient energy sources (CHO and fat) are not interconvertible.”
This means that unless you:
(a) have already maxed out your glycogen stores AND,
(b) consume energy from carbohydrates in excess of you total daily energy expenditure (that’s in carbs ONLY, not counting fat and protein)
carbs are not stored directly as fat. when you eat a lot of carbs, your body just ramps up carbohydrate oxidation (burning) at the expense of fat oxidation. this means less bodyfat is burned for energy and more dietary fat is stored as bodyfat.
this is not the same as carbs being stored as bodyfat, which, as I’ve stated, rarely ever happens in the real world. (see above)[/quote]
First of all I clearly said that once your muscle glycogen stores are full, you will store carbs as fat. I am not going to say your body doesn’t increase it’s metabolism to burn off excess carbs, but to imply that it doesn’t store any of them as fat is completely insane. And of course dietary fat is stored as body fat before carbs or protein, it doesn’t need to be converted.
But if you are like most people you will not eat meals high in fat and carbohydrates, thus reducing the possibility that your body has an abundance of carb energy and therefore stores all the fat immediately, and then some on any extra carbs. Also I would like to see some of your studies regarding what happens actually in the real world. My first hand experience in anatomy and physiology classes have given me direct infromation that carbs convert to bodyfat quite readily.
Perhaps you want to do a little research on Lipogenesis and get back to me. I’ll give you a hint, Insulin ramps up Lipogenesis, now what ramps up insulin production? Oh thats right, eating a meal high in carbs. Hmmm…
V
[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
dude, I was messin with ya
well, yeah I kinda gathered that from the smiley…honestly jehovasfitness, I can never tell with you. your posts seem to go back and forth between “this guy might know what he’s talking about” and “WTF is he thinking?”
anyhow, I figured I’d clarify what I because you know people would take my post as an excuse to eat all the carbs they want and not get fat…and that’s not what I meant at all.
[/quote]
well, sometimes I agree with you and sometimes I don’t
[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
Could it be that, shock of all shocks, eating carbs at night DOESN’T make you fat? (blasphamy!)
[/quote]
To this, I may point out that, in my post, I was showing inconsistencies in Dr. Clay’s theory, rather than questioning the theory itself. In light of this, I may point out that carbs produce an insulin response, which is anabolic AND adipogenic (increases in adipose being, by definition, a form of anabolism).
This meaning, carbs used excessively cause increased opportunities to store adipose. Now, what ‘excessive’ means varies depending on the coach and/or the individual in question. Carbs won’t make you fat, and are somewhat demonized, but they do contribute to adipogenisis. Dr. Clay addresses this.
[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
The bottom line is this: yolks contain fat, fat is calorie dense, overeat ANY macronutrient (including fat) and the unused energy is stored as body fat.
yolks aren’t “clean” or “dirty”…they just are. how many you should eat will be determined on the composition of the rest of your diet, and whether they fit into you daily calorie/macronutrient goals (notice a pattern here?)
[/quote]
In terms of this, again my goal was pointing out contradiction, not questioning theory. But, once again, I feel it is important to address this issue, as well. I agree wholeheartedly that what you eat should be based upon your goals, your responses to food, and with regard to macro and micro nutrients. And I agree with the statement that yolks just are.
They have their benefits AND their detrimental qualities, all depending on what your needs/goals/responses are. The idea of clean vs. dirty foods is simplistic when going to individual levels, though it is effective for beginners and those who do not care about nutrition.
Good point.
M
[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
This means that unless you:
(a) have already maxed out your glycogen stores AND,
(b) consume energy from carbohydrates in excess of you total daily energy expenditure (that’s in carbs ONLY, not counting fat and protein)
carbs are not stored directly as fat. when you eat a lot of carbs, your body just ramps up carbohydrate oxidation (burning) at the expense of fat oxidation. this means less bodyfat is burned for energy and more dietary fat is stored as bodyfat.
this is not the same as carbs being stored as bodyfat, which, as I’ve stated, rarely ever happens in the real world. (see above)[/quote]
Ok, I can accept this… but I think what is generally meant by the statement “carbs are stored as fat” or something along those lines, is that carbs are responsible for fat gain, not that the carbs themselves are being converted to fat.
It’s the spike in insulin which pulls the fats/proteins/glucose into muscles and fat tissues that causes excess energies to be stored, and generally as fat. Or is it something else?
You mentioned the 10/60/30 ratio of F/C/P and 60/10/30… suggesting they were equal because calories are more important than your macronutrient split.
Isn’t the timing and macro content of each meal more important than a daily macro intake? Because of the hormonal responses of insulin in relation to carbohydrate intake?
[quote]skohcl wrote:
Isn’t the timing and macro content of each meal more important than a daily macro intake? Because of the hormonal responses of insulin in relation to carbohydrate intake?[/quote]
I’m reading daily macro intake as overall calories. In which case…
No.
[quote]danchubb wrote:
skohcl wrote:
Isn’t the timing and macro content of each meal more important than a daily macro intake? Because of the hormonal responses of insulin in relation to carbohydrate intake?
I’m reading daily macro intake as overall calories. In which case…
No. [/quote]
Huh? You don’t think macro intake in each meal matters, so long as at the end of the day, all your macros are there?
So eat all your fat and protein in the first 3/4 of the day and all your carbs at the end, and its the same as eating all 3 in the same ratio throughout the day? For some reason, that doesn’t sound quite right, I don’t care if your calorie intake is the same on both days, you’ll respond differently to each one.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
I think we’ve all made the intellectual leap to understand that their isn’t storage vessicles full of table sugar and maple syrup in our love handles. Most everyone on here understands lipogenesis. [/quote]
Well maybe you and I have this understanding, but Jmo seems to think that in “the real world” carbs are not turned into fat. And while I KINDA understand where he is coming from, what I think he meant to say was, if your diet is perfect, and you workout, carbs are not turned to fat.
However, for 90% of the population, Carbs most likley do convert quite readily to body fat on a regular basis. For people who might not understand how or why, I think it’s pretty stupid to claim that carbs do not convert to fat. Real world or otherwise. Hopefully his silence after my post means he understands his mis-statement.
V
[quote]skohcl wrote:
danchubb wrote:
skohcl wrote:
Isn’t the timing and macro content of each meal more important than a daily macro intake? Because of the hormonal responses of insulin in relation to carbohydrate intake?
I’m reading daily macro intake as overall calories. In which case…
No.
Huh? You don’t think macro intake in each meal matters, so long as at the end of the day, all your macros are there?
So eat all your fat and protein in the first 3/4 of the day and all your carbs at the end, and its the same as eating all 3 in the same ratio throughout the day? For some reason, that doesn’t sound quite right, I don’t care if your calorie intake is the same on both days, you’ll respond differently to each one.[/quote]
Yea exactly. I think what people do is try to OVER SIMPLIFY. I mean being not too complicated is a good thing, but neglecting good dietary guidelines because of lazyness or ignorance is no good. Daily Macros matter AND meal macros matter. To that point calories in VS calories out also matters. Consider it like trying to hit a target with a gun, First you need to load the gun, then you need to aim it, then you need to pull the trigger. If you only do one or two of these steps, you will not hit the target, yet if you do all three, you will hit the target quite easily.
V
[quote]skohcl wrote:
So eat all your fat and protein in the first 3/4 of the day and all your carbs at the end, and its the same as eating all 3 in the same ratio throughout the day? For some reason, that doesn’t sound quite right, I don’t care if your calorie intake is the same on both days, you’ll respond differently to each one.[/quote]
My vote would be that a day where your macros were right, but timed all wrong, is still far better than a day where your macros are shot, but timed perfectly.
[quote]Vegita wrote: Hopefully his silence after my post means he understands his mis-statement.
V[/quote]
I doubt that… he said almost NEVER… and I think he meant what he said. Not that I completely agree.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
MODOK wrote:
I think we’ve all made the intellectual leap to understand that their isn’t storage vessicles full of table sugar and maple syrup in our love handles. Most everyone on here understands lipogenesis.
Well maybe you and I have this understanding, but Jmo seems to think that in “the real world” carbs are not turned into fat. And while I KINDA understand where he is coming from, what I think he meant to say was, if your diet is perfect, and you workout, carbs are not turned to fat.
However, for 90% of the population, Carbs most likley do convert quite readily to body fat on a regular basis. For people who might not understand how or why, I think it’s pretty stupid to claim that carbs do not convert to fat. Real world or otherwise. Hopefully his silence after my post means he understands his mis-statement.
V[/quote]
My silence isn’t due to any misstatement I’ve made, but rather it’s due to my speechlessness at just how deep your stupidity seems to run.
Read this sentence very, VERY carefully: Under almost all circumstances, dietary carbohydrates ARE NOT converted to fat and stored in adipose tissue.
Read that sentence again, just so we’re both on the same page. Got it? OK, now see if you can follow this: When one ingests carbohydrates, the body switches over from burning bodyfat for fuel (such as under fasting conditions) to burning the ingested carbohydrates. This, in turn, causes the body to temporarily shut down lipolysis until the ingested carbohydrate is metabolized, when lipolysis can begin once again.
Understood? Carbs DO NOT turn into fat; they just prevent the body from burning fat.
Dietary fat, on the other hand, DOES get stored as bodyfat; BUT it doesn’t prevent the burning of adipose tissue for fuel.
See the difference? I sure hope so, it isn’t a very difficult concept to grasp.
[quote]EasyRhino wrote:
skohcl wrote:
a day where your macros are shot, but timed perfectly.
[/quote]
how is that?
[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
Vegita wrote:
MODOK wrote:
I think we’ve all made the intellectual leap to understand that their isn’t storage vessicles full of table sugar and maple syrup in our love handles. Most everyone on here understands lipogenesis.
Well maybe you and I have this understanding, but Jmo seems to think that in “the real world” carbs are not turned into fat. And while I KINDA understand where he is coming from, what I think he meant to say was, if your diet is perfect, and you workout, carbs are not turned to fat.
However, for 90% of the population, Carbs most likley do convert quite readily to body fat on a regular basis. For people who might not understand how or why, I think it’s pretty stupid to claim that carbs do not convert to fat. Real world or otherwise. Hopefully his silence after my post means he understands his mis-statement.
V
My silence isn’t due to any misstatement I’ve made, but rather it’s due to my speechlessness at just how deep your stupidity seems to run.
Read this sentence very, VERY carefully: Under almost all circumstances, dietary carbohydrates ARE NOT converted to fat and stored in adipose tissue.
Read that sentence again, just so we’re both on the same page. Got it? OK, now see if you can follow this: When one ingests carbohydrates, the body switches over from burning bodyfat for fuel (such as under fasting conditions) to burning the ingested carbohydrates. This, in turn, causes the body to temporarily shut down lipolysis until the ingested carbohydrate is metabolized, when lipolysis can begin once again.
Understood? Carbs DO NOT turn into fat; they just prevent the body from burning fat.
Dietary fat, on the other hand, DOES get stored as bodyfat; BUT it doesn’t prevent the burning of adipose tissue for fuel.
See the difference? I sure hope so, it isn’t a very difficult concept to grasp.[/quote]
Not sure insulting someone is really the best way to get them to “understand”…
Dumbass.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
Most everyone on here understands lipogenesis. [/quote]
Actually, I do not, so this discussion has peaked my interest. I have a Ph.D. in Chemical Engineering, but my research and work has always focused on physical, rather than biological systems. Biology was my least favorite science. 
I’m still learning about nutrient timing and insulin responses. I’ve downloaded Dr. Clays book and will be reading through it as I get the time.
As with all internet topics, I’ll take everything with a grain of salt, but the concepts raised here have made me realize that a better understanding of the biological processes will only help me achieve my goals.
The point is, I like to see these “mechanism” discussions. My only recommendation is that you guys stop taking disagreements personally. No one knows everything and if you make a statement as fact and back it up with links to articles, we can all probably learn something.