T Nation

Double-Check First Cycle Plan

Hello Hello,

I’m finally ready to start a cycle of TEST E and just want to make sure I’m not missing anything…

Current Stats:
33 yrs - 5’10 - 170lbs -18% BF - 5 yrs of weight training - 20lbs of gains!

Goal: 175lbs - 10%BF + Increase size for chest, quads, hamstrings

Is my HCG dosage is correct? And would it change if I decided to use 250mg test-e per week?

Test E Cycle - 12 weeks

Weeks 1- 12
Dosage: 300mg / week (150mg Monday / Thursday)
Arimidex – on hand - .25mg-.5mg as needed

Weeks 13-14
HCG: 500iu EOD? (Stop 2 days before PCT)

Weeks 15-19 PCT
Nolvadex: 40/40/20/20

Thanks in advance!
Jay

You’re not going to get the results you want on 300mg test, and it may or may not be be harder to regulate E2 at that dose, which is essentially an elevated cruise. 500mg is generally accepted as a good starting dose.

Test to 500, HCG is fine if you’re only using it during the interregnum, your goals are admirable but unlikely because you’re starting with too high of a bf %.

Spend another month cutting hard before you start and your results will be significantly better.

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I disagree with spin up.

If you’ve never touched the stuff before and you are adament about doing it. Start low. You can always titrate accordingly based on how you respond.

You do have lofty goals though. 170 at 18 % bf to 175 at 10 % thats damn near 20 lbs but honeslty still totally do able but all depends on how you respond, how you train and how you recover. Things you are probably well aware of already.

Personally at 33 I don’t see why you would ever want to come off except for maybe a few months here and there because you’re tired of pinning and want a break.

Also this is definitely debatable but I think sustanon is far superior to any other ester or blend.

Just my two cents. Best of luck. Stay safe.

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One will almost for sure get results on 300 mg/wk, but shutdown is going to occur, and the gains are almost for sure going to be a let down.

I don’t think this is possible with this cycle for 12 weeks. He has to put on almost 2 lbs of muscle per week, while losing about 20 lbs of fat. Once he comes off, the water will drop.

A couple month break in which you feel terrible, so you get a break from pinning? You do you, but this doesn’t make sense to me. I would only Blast and Cruise if I had low T, which I do, and so I B&C. Otherwise I think OP is smart to PCT.

Why?

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Dang coming in hot man. Hahaha.

Well I am just relying on my anecdotal experience. If you ask me why and I tell you its because I ve been around the block and seen a thing or two that probably wouldn’t be sufficient for you.

But there is still sound logic in starting low and titrating up. Regardless of gains or anything like that. He has no idea how is body is going to respond. We can talk about all the things that can happen when you start raising your test to supra physiological levels if you want.

If I said that I know someone very very close to me who has very very average genetics but did just that would you think it possible?

Maybe my math is off but isn’t going from 170 at 18 % to 175 at 10 % like a 13 lb fat difference?

Or maybe you thought I meant 20 lb difference in fat. I meant 20 lb gain in muscle or rather lean body mass.

20 lbs of lean dried out muscle sure maybe not but I wasn’t talking about that. 20 lbs even if its mostly water because the glycogen storing capacity of the muscle is improved on cycle is still lean body mass in my eyes. Muscles are still bigger. Still stronger.

Well again I know someone whom I am very very close with and he would tell me that you can hold on to most the size in strength for a surprising amount of time even if you go cold turkey. And I wasn’t saying to do that. Pinning week in and week out or every ten days or whatever your protocol is can foreseeably start to get a bit tiresome for many people. I was merely suggesting if that were the case then no big deal take some time off. If anything I advocating not coming off. At 33 there is no point. And if he plans to run more cycles he will constantly be yo yoing in regards to his muscle, fat, strength, mental health and his hormones will be fluctuating all the time. Better stay on and go slow and steady. Much safer. Or if he wants to B and C sure do that to. I am not in favour of that but thats just me.

For obvious reasons I think. Blend of short vs long acting esters. So bioavailibity begins much sooner and as I mentioned if you do decide to take a break from pinning and want to go on some holiday for four weeks or something then well you get the long half life esters in the blend.

Testosterone deconate specifically has a half life of 33 days. Of which in sustenances 250 there is 100 mg. So you can imagine how much deconate there will be after 3 months of just. You could ride that for a long time. Probably much longer than than 33 days.

But thats just my opinion. Its not gospel or anything like that.

Man idk but I feel like you kinda came hard at me for whatever reason.

Sustanon is literally the worst ester if you’re cycling or blasting. You can make an argument that it eventually levels out and is great for trt, but that’s not immediate. Sustanon is communism: makes sense on paper, is total dogshit once it has contact with reality.

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I agree conditionally. That condition is that they are on TRT before hand, or are for sure going to do TRT after. It is risk vs reward, and it is a personal calculation. I personally don’t think the risk is much different between 300 mg and 500 mg, but the reward is greater with the 500 mg.

It is a 18 lb gain in LBM, and 13 lbs of fat loss. IMO, this is a huge change. Maybe it is possible for someone who isn’t very developed (like OP, not offense just stating these changes get harder as you get bigger), and has elite genetics?

Sure, that is valid. I personally count the muscle after the cycle when evaluating how effective the cycle is.

I disagree here. I think we would need to know more about OP to make a judgement like this. Does he want kids soon? What are his T levels like natural (some are pretty lucky, and TRT wouldn’t offer much benefit)?

I think it is good for what it was designed for (infrequent dosing for TRT). I would not run it for a cycle as the hormonal fluctuations would be too much for me in my estimation. I think if I was using it I would pin it EOD, which is a disadvantage. Again, if you like it, that is fine. I haven’t tried it, but it doesn’t sound good on paper to me.

Sorry if I came off as aggressive. Just had a couple disagreements, that’s all.

Yeah thats what’s espoused all over the forums.

I think you need to do what’s best for you and if someone is getting involved in this they should probably find what works best for them. So try a variety of esters and blends.

It is fast acting too. Test prop 30 mg and test phenyl prop 60 so 90 mgs of prop essentially and that will reach peak plasma concentration in if I recall correctly 2 weeks.

Yeah 90 mgs test not a huge dose. Not massive. But my personal philosophy is less is more. I don’t think you need massive doses to make solid worthwhile gains.

No eventually levels out. Its levelling out at different times. The different esters reach peak plasma concentrations at different times.

I am no expert in pharmacokinetics but I think its a great choice. I would advocate that over test enanthate.

Nah, @mnben87 is just direct. He is never rude or disrespectful for no reason. People tend to think I am aggressive (in person, online I feel like you have to massage your words more since you don’t have body language or voice inflection) sometimes because I don’t beat around the bush. I’m not mean, I’m just straight forward.

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I think I beat around the bush almost too much (kinda a Minnesota thing, maybe I am just an ass online?). I do apologize for coming off that way @oglebee. Respectful debate is something I advocate strongly for. I think we (people on the whole) would be better off if we could debate without attacks and such.

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Your right I think he should go just 250 and pin just 250 once every 10 days. He should get blood work before and after and aim at the high end of normal physiological range.

I am all about safety. You can have your cake and eat it too. You can get huge on trt dose. In my experience. From the people I’ve known. Which has been many. People start to have diminishing returns once they start venturing beyond the realm of what is considered TRT dosage.

Yeah you said 20 lbs of fat. Just wanted to clarify that my math wasn’t wrong.

Very developed. No disrespect to op but 175 at 18 % and 5’10. He probably looks like a normal dude who takes care of himself at the gym.

I don’t know his genetics but assuming they are average I think he could get very close to those goals over the course of three months.

After the cycle? But you B & C? So you are technically always on right? I mean you come off of cycle and don’t do another unless you do something different or your an anomaly. Those gains are lost.

Well you can be on TRT and still be fertile. But I wasn’t even considering that in the first place. I don’t know I just assumed that at 33 he was responsible enough to be aware of those risks but yeah sure valid point.

I mean we are on a pharma sub forum talking about taking drugs in a manner in which they were not intended for.

It sounds great on paper to me. I will see if there is any literature out there on sust and hormone levels. I am sure there is.

Oh no offence taken man. Speak to me in whatever manner you wish. I don’t care. It just seemed like you were really picking apart what I said and I was just acknowledging that. And by all means do it.

Absent context this is correct. However, within this context it’s not. What if someone decides that’s what’s best for them is to chain smoke and funnel PBR into their anus? You probably wouldn’t just say “well if that’s what you think is best go ahead”.

Sustanon needs to be pinned at least Eod if one is looking for stable levels. And see, stability is one of those things that’s actually good for everybody. There is no second way on that one. The more stable the levels the better you are. This applies to all males. Sustanon used once or even twice weekly simply doesn’t allow that to be possible.

Twice weekly:

Eod:

Now Test E eod:

Sustanon is basically a meme drug. It’s more expensive and if you’re pinning eod (Because you need stable levels when you get supraphysiological) then you’re essentially paying more for the kind of results you can get from the same schedule but with test e instead.

Except this isn’t the safe route. Unless someone is planning trt then this is the opposite of the safe route. You’re 100% right that you get get great results on trt. I’ve seen it in my own life. But for someone who’s not going to do it for life the suggestion you’re making is a classic asymmetric bet with more downside risk than upside gain.

250/w is the same as 1,000/w as far as shutting down your natural production. Either dose is sending you to 0 (although not literally, it is functionally 0, which is what matters). So that’s the known risk.

Now what you need to do is figure out the expected value of each dose and compare that to the risk-free return, i.e. taking nothing. What would you gain on 250/w, vs 500/w. That part is tricky because you can’t know for sure, but you can maybe guess the delta of each. The constant is the risk-adjusted return baseline against which all is measured. That’s 0mg/w. So now what is the alpha (gain beyond the risk-adjusted return) of each dose above 0? Based on what we know of the body and the tremendous number of anecdotes from users we can surmise that the alpha of 500/w is > the alpha of 250/w. Since that has the higher alpha that is the safer investment to make.

Oh you one of those people.

What do you think I mean when I say “best”.

I am referring to how he feels on the drugs that he is about to inject in his body. Human physiology is not cookie cutter. One size does not fit all.

Mate if he feels like shit on it and he thinks its because his test levels are all over the place fine by all means don’t take it.

Or he can just do what everyone else does take 500 mgs of test E because thats what everyone does. Take his HCG. Take his Nolvadex. Come off and three months later look like shit and feel like shit and simply be a few hundred bucks poorer.

Regarding the charts. I don’t know how to interpret them.

I mean I literally do. But I think perhaps your being a bit too teleological in your thinking.

I think it would be better to see if you can find some data where they actually do test panel on someone take sust at different protocols.

You probably won’t find anything on that. I just looked and I only found the clinical trials when they first were bring that drug to market.

Thats pretty much the way it is when your talking about these compounds being used in this sort of manner. There is not a lot of actual scientific research behind it. It is a bunch of anecdotal evidence. One bro to another.

And its that sort of experience from which I am speaking.

I spent all morning with clients who were going hard with the hyperbole, so I suppose I was primed to go that direction. It’s a little bit of a departure for me, but it made me chuckle so I went with it.

No doubt. There’s a lot of reading the bird entrails when it comes to what we think is going to happen vs what actually happens. Nothing is terribly clear, outside of the basics.

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In everything I have written were you not able to surmise that this is what I think he should do. I feel like that should have been painfully obvious.

Unless you’re well versed in the literature and the science I don’t think you can confidently say any of that.

What suggestion do you think I am making for this bloke?

Yeah and I obviously don’t give a fuck about him shutting down his fucking HPA you wombat. That is the least of the worries. That is a given. Its the other side effects that I would be concerned about and in regards to those no 250 is not the fucking same as 1000 mgs.

Mate I am not even gonna dignify that masturbatory verbiage with a response. Yeah I get it. You think you’re smart.

No, I just understand risk. I’m sorry you’re Very Mad Online, but if you don’t care to discuss this anymore I’m perfectly fine with that.

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I agree for the most part. I like more pinning frequency, but if it works for you, it’s fair play. As far as recommendations go, I think many have issues with that infrequent. I wouldn’t recommend starting at less than once per week.

Maybe I’m huge (don’t think so, 5’10" 210 lbs and about 16 body fat). I don’t think of myself that way, but others comment. I guess what I’m saying is huge is relative.

Yeah, I b&c. I don’t lose much since I cruise, and I’m just starting b&c. If I was getting up to a muscular 240, then I would lose a lot. I think I’m approaching my genetic limit on 200 mg cruise though. I might have another 10 lbs of muscle that I can hold just on cruise? The big advantage for me had been what I can hold while being leaner / dropping fat.

True. I’ll probably use HCG if I ever decide to produce a crotch goblin.