T Nation

Dose Tren Actually Kill “Cardio”?

Everyone says Tren kills cardio… yet mma fighters get popped for it. What is the actual physiological mechanism by which it kills cardio? To me it seems it more so causes a shortness of breath, it wouldn’t make sense to me that it kills your aerobic capacity. I’ve heard some anecdote of guys using Nasacort while on Tren and having it completely fix the shortness of breath issue. Can someone with some good perspective chime in?

Interesting case report in that the subject had undergone echo/stress echo 15 months prior to hospitalization for hypertension and it was unremarkable. 7 year history of AAS.

Given the elapsed time from tren introduction to steer slaughter, it would seem Tren really perfect when you want to speed the time required for cardiomyopathy and waiting years just won’t do. Also, realistic report in showing how quickly these issues can manifest even for folks trying to be diligent with blood work/testing, etc.

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Discussion
Our case highlights an interesting presentation of a dilated cardiomyopathy with acute decompensated heart failure one year after cessation of anabolic steroids in a patient who had performed intensive physical training, and showed no improvement of the ejection fraction after cessation of the abuse and initiation of conventional heart failure therapy. In literature there are several reports documenting AAS-induced cardiotoxicity and in particular DCM [1-13] (Table 1) although few of them indicate irreversible effects on cardiac muscle performance [1,6,8,13] Table. We believe that what can happen in irreversible myocytes damage like in ours patient or even in fatal cases [14,15], is a more profound damage to the myocytes that can be caused by the synergism of AAS, possibly at high dosage and for a prolonged span of time with other factors that enhance the AAS damage, first of all strenuous exercise training. We will examine first the AAS general toxic effect mechanisms on cardiac myocytes and then the AAS synergism with strenous exercise and with other potential myocites damaging factors like the growth hormone (GH).

Regarding the general AAS cardiac toxic effect AASs can have numerous cardiovascular side effects and they have a proven direct cardiotoxicity [16]. The mechanisms underlying this cardiotoxici-ty are still not properly understood, but some studies suggest that the adverse effects of AASs on cardiac muscle can be direct: in rat cardiomyocytes, AASs induce apoptotic cell death in a dose-de-pendent manner [17]. The apoptotic process may be triggered by a membrane receptor -second messenger cascades that increase polyamines which are known to mediate uncontrolled transmem-brane Ca++ flux and also by increasing intracellular Ca++ via Ca++ in-flux and Ca++ mobilization from the sarcoplasmatic reticulum [17]. The uncontrolled increase of Ca++ affects apoptotic mitochondrial membrane permeability and triggers the release of apoptogenic factors including caspase-9 from damaged mitochondria [17]. This mechanism was confirmed by an in-vitro study on the cardiomyo-cytes ultrastructure of rodents after AASs exposure demonstrating mitochondria and myofibrils aberrations similar to those observed in the early stages of human heart failure [18].

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Interesting — but is this the same mechanism by which Tren seems to cause shortness of breath short term? By some people reportedly within 3 days of running an ester like acetate

No, @readalot is merely pointing out that using trenbolone places ENORMOUS amounts of stress on the body.

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Cortisol, prostaglandins, bradykinin, COVID in a syringe. You can search the first 3 terms along with trenbolone and find lots of conjecture. In this particular case, I don’t want to know too much about it since the drug was designed to be used in an animal that will be killed within 12-18 months. Thanks for asking.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-human-os/computing/hardware/has-the-summit-supercomputer-cracked-the-covid-code

@unreal24278 and @lordgains I wonder if there will ever be a double blind study with trenbolone (w/ w/o oxandrolone or stanozolol) to test bradykinin hypothesis? I guess the test subjects would live long enough to make meaningful conclusions if you could power the study appropriately. Count me out.

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If you’re referring to a study wherein subjects are given trenbolone + stanozolol/oxadrolone… not a chance. The ethics committee would never grant approval for such a study. I haven’t heard of a tren/var combo being popular, but tren/winny is. The Anabolic Doc (Thomas O Connor) states on his youtube channel that within his practice he sees heart disease develop at “absolutely unprecedented rates” on tren/winny combos.

If the study in question revolves around allowing subjects to self administer these drugs… then maybe, but even then quality control would be poor (dosages aren’t standardised due to UGL drugs and oxandrolone is commonly faked).

I can link some decent literature regarding studies that monitor health status of those self administering AAS if you’d like (some of these studies include the self administration of T3, GH, beta 2 agonists etc in conjunction with AAS). Within one study several subjects develop SEVERE dyslipidemia (HDL of 2-7mg/dl!)

To be fair, Trenbolone hexahydrobenzylcarbonate was successfully given to humans for a while. Generally speaking though trenbolone is an absurdly harsh drug, I don’t see why people would wish to use it unless they were competing within the realm of bodybuilding and/or strength sports. For the average gymbro the cost/benefit ratio is just SOOOOO skewed towards risk.

I’ve got a decent study that I’ll link here for you (off topic)

https://acsjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/1097-0142(196802)21:2<197::AID-CNCR2820210207>3.0.CO;2-R

Look at the dosage given! This is the highest I’ve ever seen clinically administered (well that and 150mg oxymetholone/day). Perhaps @flipcollar might be interested too. A little over a year back he asked me if there had ever been legitimate clinical trials using high dosages. I linked a trial where methyltestosterone was given at something like 200mg/day… but only for a duration of 2-3 days, this is far juicier :slight_smile:

holy crap, 1200mg a week? That is quite a high dose for a study.

I’ve probably mentioned this before, I bought tren ace a few years ago. I used it for like… 3 weeks? Maybe even less. Couldn’t handle the cough, it destroyed me.

Thanks for mentioning this and good point. Going back to the original papers/patents I see Tren Ace/Hex/esters all popped up in mid 60s under development by Roussel (1965-1967). Very limited info in humans here:

Very early observations in human beings

Male and female human volunteers were given i.m. doses of 5 or
10 mg TBA every-other-day during 14 days. In the subjects administered
5 mg TBA, nitrogen balance was disturbed, including retention of
nitrogen. In the 10 mg group, some women showed disturbances of the
menstruation cycle. The same dose caused a slight but significant
reduction of excretion of 17-ketosteroids. No effects on
17-hydroxy-corticosteroid excretion were seen. Blood parameters
(protein, cholesterol, coagulation factors, and prothrombin and
thrombin time) were unaffected by treatment (Krüskemper et al.,
1967).
H.L., Morgner, K.D., & Noell, G. (1967). Klinische pharmakologie von Trienolonen, eine Gruppe neuartiger anabol wirksamer Oestran-Derivate, Arzneim. Forsch., 17, 449-454.

By the 1970s Finaplix (Tren Ace)/Revalor usage in cattle was in full swing. Don’t have the exact reference for when Parabolan was introduced in France (1980-1987) through Negma but you are correct it was prescribed to humans for a while (I don’t have the data to say it was successful or not :slight_smile:).

Thanks for sharing this. The heyday of breast cancer research with AAS. Here’s the follow up study that was slightly larger:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/02841867509132696

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They had to drop the dosage for most of the ladies. I hope you are doing well.

When has a high end/‘name’/ UFC guy tested for Tren.??

Among other things would make it hell to stay in your weight class

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Was surprised when Fabricio Werdum popped for it.

In my experience most of the guys caught get pinged forTest, Masteron, EQ and Sarms. Personally I’ve never heard of a guy getting caught for Tren. Besides winny I can’t think of anything less beneficial to MMA than Tren.

A lot of guys use winny, people associate winny with joint pain but they take bodybuilder doses which is why. Athletes take much lower doses. I’ve seen a lot of mma guys on forums talking about Tren not affecting their cardio at all, which maybe because of how insane the aerobic capacity of some of these guys is

You mean in terms of gaining too much weight? I’d say Tren would help you stay in your weight class by making you recomp while getting a shit ton stronger

I’ve used winny getting ready for competition using metabolic conditioning style training Along with sparring and it was the worst idea. I picked up 2 injuries on it. That’s not definitive, but it’s my experience. Again, in my experience, I see very few mma and BJJ guys using winny for that reason and Tren because of the supposed cardio issues. I’m no longer involved in the pro circuit though, so I can’t say what the current trends are.

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