T Nation

Don't Use Sustanon For HRT!

Just my public service announcement. They ran out of T cyp here locally in my third world country, but they have Sustanon. It’s a lot cheaper, so at first I was excited.

But for three straight weeks, at each injection site I’ve had marked swelling, pain, and tenderness, which happened exactly ZERO times in four months of T cyp injections. I looked up what the gear guys thought about it, and they pretty much hate it. Apparently there’s something in it which can cause an inflammatory reaction.

Hey Doc,
I believe the problem is in the T-prop. Lots of guys (me too) have had negative reactions to Sustanon. I found out (back when I had some) that if it was blended down with some T-Cyp, all of the problems went away for me at least. I have read that some will cut it with UPS oils to take “burn” out of it.

I have also noticed (at least for me) I had to inject EOD to keep “happy” shall we say, although it made me break out like nobody’s business too. You might try to blend it to continue using it with better results.

Thanks, KNB. You know, Sustanon really is crap, I noticed the “falling off” effect after just three days each week. And to think they designed this thing to have a mix of four types of T to promote a “smooth level.” Reminds me of many psych drugs they brought to market with great claims of technical advances which ended up being BS.

Doc,
As I’m sure you know, the original concept was to only an injection once a month with Sustanon by the treating physician. It certainly doesn’t have an effective half life long enough to do that. One of the esters has a almost three week half life, but I agree as a HRT drug it will give decent results, but who really wants to inject EOD unless you’re on cycle? I only found it as a help with T-Cyp mixed in, but I did notice it did “feel” different. Sorry to hear of your current predicament, doc.

Thanks doc. By the way, it’s good to have a good, savvy physician around here. Thanks for sharing what you know.

[quote]bigdawg011 wrote:
Thanks doc. By the way, it’s good to have a good, savvy physician around here. Thanks for sharing what you know.[/quote]

Thanks, bigdawg. Its the least I could do, considering I am learning so much from others, since I strayed so far away from the field of real lifting for so many years. I dont want folks thinking I'm the next guru, shit, I didn't know what a glute ham raise was until I saw HT do one on his thread. I really am like a frozen Wooly Mammoth from the seventies who just got de-thawed.              Doc

You have to understand that sustanon has become kind of a generic term used to describe test blends.

The real, original sustanon made by Organon (I think the spelling is correct) has many faithful fans. There is something in the organon stuff that makes the entire blend smooth as silk. I am no fan of running test blends, so don’t mistake this as any type of endorsement.

I just wanted to let you guys know that just because the label says sustanon, it is a pretty safe bet that that the vial is just a test blend.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
You have to understand that sustanon has become kind of a generic term used to describe test blends.

The real, original sustanon made by Organon (I think the spelling is correct) has many faithful fans. There is something in the organon stuff that makes the entire blend smooth as silk. I am no fan of running test blends, so don’t mistake this as any type of endorsement.

I just wanted to let you guys know that just because the label says sustanon, it is a pretty safe bet that that the vial is just a test blend. [/quote]

Interesting. Thanks for the interest Rainjack. I looked at the box again, it has an Organon logo on it, but is also says "made in Mexico". It this possibly a rip off?

Anyway, this morning I tried a smaller dose than my called for HRT dose and put it in my denervated left gastroc, where there is some fat where used to be muscle. Couldnt feel the injection, but I'll be damned if the gastroc is swollen and painful like every other bodypart I've tried this stuff on. I'm sure this stuff has got to go, for me, but its all I got until I can get some cyp from the States. 

It does raise interesting questions for me, like maybe the nerve conduction tests were wrong, maybe I've got a little function in that gastroc. If this "Sustanon" can stir it up while nothing else can, maybe I found myself a miracle. Or is it just a Synthol like reaction? Things that make you go hmmmmm.                                            Doc                                       

It’s most likely a fake.

I think sustanon is a joke, personally.

When you say gastroc - are you talking about a calf shot? Good Lord, those hurt. Watch the injection site closely - injecting estered test into fat could lead to an abscess.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
It’s most likely a fake.

I think sustanon is a joke, personally.

When you say gastroc - are you talking about a calf shot? Good Lord, those hurt. Watch the injection site closely - injecting estered test into fat could lead to an abscess. [/quote]
rainjack, it might be an accurate statement to say I currently am a newb doing experimental things out of desperation. Yeah, I’m talking about my calf. After a car accident ruined a couple lumbar discs, the nerves going down to my inner calves were either cut or damaged to the point of non-function. So I have these weird calves, with strong outer gastocs (lateral head), soleus still intact, but medial gastrocs atrophied to nothing. Some fat just sits in there, not the worst thing because it would look even weirder if there was no mass in there at all. I read somewhere that T could be injected into fat, though not preferable. True, or BS? And I really think there’s a tiny amount of muscle tissue still there-I probably need an MRI.
But what do you think about this weird inflammatory reaction to this T? Ever heard of something like that? Someone else posted it might be the T prop in the Sustanon. Remember, I’m a doc, I know how to give a shot, and I gave myself four months of T cyp injectons without any of this bullshit happening. Doc

Testosterone Propionate is renowned for injection pain.

That could be a major cause in your injection site pain/swelling. I have heard it said many times that if you have reactions to bee stings, you will most likely have a very similar reaction to test prop injections.

Another thing to consider is that sustanon is a blend of several different esters. It takes more solvent to get those esters into solution.

The solvents could be causing the swelling.

One more consideration is that some of the test could be coming out of solution and recrystalizing (so to speak) in the muscle.

Still another consideration could be that a lot of the pharmaceutical grade gear contains an analgesic of some sort to reduce swelling and pain at the injection site. This mexican sustanon may not.

You’re a doc, so you know to look for the signs of infection - what is it? Rubor et tumor cum dolor cum color?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Testosterone Propionate is renowned for injection pain.

That could be a major cause in your injection site pain/swelling. I have heard it said many times that if you have reactions to bee stings, you will most likely have a very similar reaction to test prop injections.

Another thing to consider is that sustanon is a blend of several different esters. It takes more solvent to get those esters into solution.

The solvents could be causing the swelling.

One more consideration is that some of the test could be coming out of solution and recrystalizing (so to speak) in the muscle.

Still another consideration could be that a lot of the pharmaceutical grade gear contains an analgesic of some sort to reduce swelling and pain at the injection site. This mexican sustanon may not.

You’re a doc, so you know to look for the signs of infection - what is it? Rubor et tumor cum dolor cum color? [/quote]
Very good, your latin describes cellulitis, a serious medical condition involving a bacterial or fungal infection which starts in or below the skin and spreads. It often produces hot, red colored skin along with the swellling and pain. I’m only getting the swelling and pain. I’ve seen several cases of cellulits, it aint pretty. This isnt it, although its peculiarly close.
The pain and swelling occur gradually over 24 hours, and consistently last about TWO WEEKS. How bizarre. I’m leaning to either your test prop theory or the solvent theory.
Really, it would be a moot point since this is a miserable way to take HRT and has to go, its just my curiousity about the “awakening” effect on my dead medial calf muscle. I’ve thought about putting Synthol in there as well, not for looks, but in the off chance it could do some good. In my heart, despite the tests, I think I might have 5-10% nerve function remaining there, and anything I could do to wake up the dead muscle is ethically worth it to me (short of stealing somebody else’s gastroc and transplanting it!!!). I talked to a neurologist online, and I am only the second patient known in the literature to have bilateral medical gastroc atropy-this is a non-typical fluke reaction to the lumbar nerve damage. The other patient who had it gradually became a toe walker as the scar tissue contracted and forced her ankles into permanent extension. That would really suck.
Sorry, I seem to be bogging down T-Nation with a litany of problems and miseries…many with no answers. The calf thing is not good, but it isnt the end of the world. I’ve got other things more important going on. Doc

If you’re trying to regenerate muscle - you might look into growth hormone.

I don’t really think you are going to see any real response to the test injected into you calf, because estered test must go systemic, lose the ester, and be redistributed to the body. In other words there is no such thing as localized growth from testosterone.

You will get the swelling and the irritation, and some growth due to the systemic effect of having exogenous test in your body - but you could inject in your shoulder and get the same long term effect as you would injecting test into your calves.

Be sure and research the synthol very carefully before trying it out on yourself. I would never touch the stuff and, as a result, I know next to nothing about it.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
If you’re trying to regenerate muscle - you might look into growth hormone.

I don’t really think you are going to see any real response to the test injected into you calf, because estered test must go systemic, lose the ester, and be redistributed to the body. In other words there is no such thing as localized growth from testosterone.

You will get the swelling and the irritation, and some growth due to the systemic effect of having exogenous test in your body - but you could inject in your shoulder and get the same long term effect as you would injecting test into your calves.

Be sure and research the synthol very carefully before trying it out on yourself. I would never touch the stuff and, as a result, I know next to nothing about it. [/quote]
I kinda figured all of this was dubious for localized calf growth. But isnt the same true of HGH? Or is there such a thing as localized growth/muscle regeneration from HGH?
Right now I’m too broke for any of it anyway. But it always helps to know if I have options. There’s a doctor down here in C.R. who has suggested my best bet is for him to inject stem cells in the spinal nerve roots which got damaged from the accident. Far out, huh? This guy’s experimenting on lots of really desperate folks- with Lou Gehrig’s disease, M.S., quadraplegics and so forth. If I see that he makes some significant progress, and I find the bucks, i’ll try that. It would make for an interesting thread, wouldnt it? Doc

I honestly know next to nothing about HGH. I have had no interest in it, and my brain is way too small/damaged to try and learn about stuff I am not interested in.

I do know that a lot of athletes use HGH to help speed recovery after surgery/injury. Whether or not that extends to localized regeneration of damaged tissue, I have no clue.

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Bushy, thanks for the interest. A picture would help a lot. Here’s one I just took. Interesting, I compared it to pictures from four months ago, my outer gastrocs have really grown! I think there is partial nerve function in the right medial, both visually and palpably. Nada in left. Sensory is decreased, but not totally. Prior to my lifting, I had not given a lot of thought into the other muscles possibly in the L4 and L5 dermatomes that might have been affected, because there were no other gross atrophies like with my medial gastrocs. However, the difficulty I am having in regaining my leg strength in front squats is disconcerting, they are not coming back anywhere near as quickly as all of my other lifts, especially pure upper body (ie my bench is roaring back now that my shoulder is better).
Other data-completely lost ankle reflex on left, 90% lost on right. EMG’s and NCV’s were only done on the left (amazing-they just told me they assumed they were both completely denervated.) Other interesting fact-my horrible radicular pains were relieved by an L5-S1 discectomy, but as you correctly looked up or knew, the medial gastoc is innervated mostly by L4-L5. That disc was also considered probably herniated but not considered severe enough for discectomy. Doc

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