T Nation

Done w/ AD, Doing Targeted Keto

I have been through the AD pro’s and cons. I am going with what I think to be more cutting edge research and updated approaches to getting cut and maintaining muscle now. First up is the more sensible Targeted Ketogenic Dieting approach. I’ll try this for a couple months, then try Intermittent Fasting centered around the workout and post workout for the eating times. After a couple months of that, I’ll know which one works best, and report back. While I like the way Lyle McDonald looks at things, his Ultimate Diet 2.0 looks to be more of the same complicated approach to the dieting and training where I want to use my own training which is solid IMO.

     The problems with the AD for me, is the simple fact of, when the weekend carb up rolls around, you get the same old sides from all the high carb intake, as far as lethargy, etc, and you get a few good workouts from it. As in the immediate next 2 or 3 days post carb up. So I'm going back out on the edge to find something else.

     Anyway, I will be trying to dial this in, but my basic approach will be to take in around 25g simple carbs pre-wkout, and around 50g post workout, along with some whey isolate, and the usual fare of BCAA, etc at this time.

I should see no reason I won’t stay in or near ketosis as the carbs around the workout should be burned up readily from the intensity and demands for it.
The rest of the day I will go very low carb ala the AD, basicly high quality fats, protein and veggies strictly.

         Anyone who has tried a similar approach feel free to add any info you have learned that worked well for you. Obviously there will be a calorie deficit working around all these things as well.

                   cheers,
                   ToneBone

I did the AD for a little over a year, and love it, but began deviating away from it about 2 months ago after reading Mike Roussell’s “Layered Kinetic Approach to Nutrient Timing.”

[quote]30 minutes pre-workout �?? Consume 10 grams of BCAAs. These get into your system fast and ensure that when your workout begins you have elevated blood amino acid levels.

15 minutes pre-workout - Begin sipping on 1 serving of Surge with 5 grams of added micronized creatine. This is the second layer. Surge contains dextrose, maltodextrose, protein hydrosylates and BCAAs, all of which have very fast absorption times, thus guaranteeing that your blood amino acid, blood sugar, and insulin levels stay elevated throughout your workout. Continue to sip on your workout drink until the end of your workout.

End of workout �?? Finish left over Surge. The next layer is another 10 grams of BCAAs. This will elicit another blood amino acid spike to halt any chance of muscle breakdown while setting the stage for maximum protein synthesis.

30 minutes post-workout - Consume 20 grams of whey protein and Gatorade or fruit juice. This is the first layer where we choose foods with a slower absorption profile. The whey protein (preferably whey isolate) does not get absorbed as fast as the whey hydrosylate in Surge, but it’s still quicker than whole foods.

60 minutes post-workout �?? Eat a plate of scrambled egg whites and white rice. Whole food meals are digested slower than liquid meals but because there’s no fiber or fat in this combination; it gets into your system very quickly, allowing for a fast and continuous stream of nutrients to be shuttled to your re-fueling muscles.

105 minutes post-workout �?? Chicken breast, broccoli (or fibrous vegetable of your choice), brown rice (or sweet potato), and olive oil. This meal contains all whole foods with fiber and fat, allowing for slow digestion.

Amino Acids and carbohydrates will now be slowly spilling over into your system, allowing for maximum recovery and growth but also preventing a blood sugar crash (which isn’t conducive to muscle growth).[/quote]

I’ve noticed faster gains with this approach, and I do feel more balanced with my carbs more spread out during the week also.

I really like this PWO strategy, and eating AD style for the rest of the day, but I think once January comes around I’ll try carb cycling.

[quote]Brant_Drake wrote:
I did the AD for a little over a year, and love it, but began deviating away from it about 2 months ago after reading Mike Roussell’s “Layered Kinetic Approach to Nutrient Timing.”

30 minutes pre-workout â¿¿ Consume 10 grams of BCAAs. These get into your system fast and ensure that when your workout begins you have elevated blood amino acid levels.

15 minutes pre-workout - Begin sipping on 1 serving of Surge with 5 grams of added micronized creatine. This is the second layer. Surge contains dextrose, maltodextrose, protein hydrosylates and BCAAs, all of which have very fast absorption times, thus guaranteeing that your blood amino acid, blood sugar, and insulin levels stay elevated throughout your workout. Continue to sip on your workout drink until the end of your workout.

End of workout â¿¿ Finish left over Surge. The next layer is another 10 grams of BCAAs. This will elicit another blood amino acid spike to halt any chance of muscle breakdown while setting the stage for maximum protein synthesis.

30 minutes post-workout - Consume 20 grams of whey protein and Gatorade or fruit juice. This is the first layer where we choose foods with a slower absorption profile. The whey protein (preferably whey isolate) does not get absorbed as fast as the whey hydrosylate in Surge, but it’s still quicker than whole foods.

60 minutes post-workout â¿¿ Eat a plate of scrambled egg whites and white rice. Whole food meals are digested slower than liquid meals but because there’s no fiber or fat in this combination; it gets into your system very quickly, allowing for a fast and continuous stream of nutrients to be shuttled to your re-fueling muscles.

105 minutes post-workout â¿¿ Chicken breast, broccoli (or fibrous vegetable of your choice), brown rice (or sweet potato), and olive oil. This meal contains all whole foods with fiber and fat, allowing for slow digestion.

Amino Acids and carbohydrates will now be slowly spilling over into your system, allowing for maximum recovery and growth but also preventing a blood sugar crash (which isn’t conducive to muscle growth).

I’ve noticed faster gains with this approach, and I do feel more balanced with my carbs more spread out during the week also.

I really like this PWO strategy, and eating AD style for the rest of the day, but I think once January comes around I’ll try carb cycling.[/quote]

          Yeah that looks pretty good Brant, what system were you thinking of using for your carb cycling approach in January?

The Carb Cycling Codex, and then start tweaking after a couple of months. What I really want to play around with is how I feel/grow with high and low carb days, or just keeping the daily amount fairly constant, just centered around workouts.

Good luck with the intermittent fasting. I like food too much to try that. Breakfast is the reason I get out of bed. What were you thinking of doing in regards to that?

[quote]Brant_Drake wrote:
The Carb Cycling Codex, and then start tweaking after a couple of months. What I really want to play around with is how I feel/grow with high and low carb days, or just keeping the daily amount fairly constant, just centered around workouts.

Good luck with the intermittent fasting. I like food too much to try that. Breakfast is the reason I get out of bed. What were you thinking of doing in regards to that?[/quote]

      Running a 16-19 hour fast with a 8-5 hour eating window. So, for me I would eat from say 11-5 or close to that, and fast the rest of the time, as I work out generally around noon. Though I'm waiting for some input from "shredding swedish meat", I want to have something pre-bed to help there too.
     The other idea is to train fasted and begin the window post wkout, thus staying closer to bedtime that way. Of course I would have my bcaa's for training as a pre-wkout supp, as well as caffeine probably.

    Despite what the overall bb community will think of this, it's been used with great results. It relies on the principle of hormones being better suited for "pulse" type response vs. the regularity of many small meals. 

I don’t know if you’ve read this article, but it might give you some ideas.

I know it’s not exactly IF, but . . .

[quote]Brant_Drake wrote:
I don’t know if you’ve read this article, but it might give you some ideas.

I know it’s not exactly IF, but . . . [/quote]

        Hey that's good for some ideas, I may just change my workout time to later in the day, that way I get that last meal before bed to keep hunger down from that point on through to the next day, and catabolism at bay also. I think it might be hard to do my normal noon workout and keep the hunger down after the five or so hours of eating, as there would still be a good deal of time left before bed. Thanks Brant, that one eluded me somehow.
          
                 ToneBone

ToneBone,

Very interesting concept. You said you would eat from 11a-5p. What type of meals would you be eating (food, shakes, both, etc) and how often, and after 5p, would you stop eating completely, or would you maybe have a protein shake or BCAA’s or vitamins or something along those lines. Also, would you be drinking any water after 5p as well?

Just curious. Thanks for your time.

Mike Roussell’s diet approach is rehashing basic principles. I hope that isn’t new to anyone, and the reason why it works is the same reason other diets work. Sort of that “many programs, same principles” things going on. I’m not bashing it, but don’t think it’s magic. I would hope anyone would use those principles peri-workout in some fashion regardless of their diet. I will also mention that prescribing set amounts of intake of BCAA, protein, etc. is dumb, as each person requires different levels of nutrients. I understand there is a maximum level of carbohydrate, protein, and volume of digestion, but he certainly isn’t addressing that here.

Second, fasting long-term is stupid. Sure it can keep you relatively lean, but it really limits the size you will hold. If you’re looking to have the Hollywood “small and shredded” look, go for it. I’m not bashing it, but just understand that it may not coordinate with your goals.

Something I’ve been doing it low-carb except for fruits and veggies, with occasional other carb sources. It certainly isn’t low-carb when you add up the totals, but it is much lower in carbs than most dietary approaches. Of course I do this because I can’t eat many carb sources anyway due to allergies.

The main ideas that any effective diet for health, performance, and body composition are: maintain nutrient levels throughout the day, keep insulin under control, consume adequate carbohydrates, proteins, and fats. Sure, these principles can be occluded from time to time for a specific purpose (say, extreme leanness, or extreme performance), but long-term these principles need to be in place for optimal alignment of each of the three areas.

I won’t get into explaining the reasons behind each of these as I’m sure they’re well understood here, but I can go into detail if anyone would like me to. Even though we understand these principles, sometimes we go with extreme ideas for something different, not necessarily because it works. If what we’re doing doesn’t work, or we aren’t really sticking to it, we try something different because different must be better, right? This is how fad diets get so popular. People go from one to next one to the next one…

Anyway, my point is it seems your approach seems a bit extreme for what you’re trying to achieve. Perhaps I’m wrong, and I’m certainly not saying you shouldn’t do it, but take a look at the big picture to make sure it is really a good idea.

Maybe I’m just in one of those moods, which could be a possibility. I just had a personal training meeting at work and some people came to “teach” us about olympic lifts. I wasted 1.5 hours of my life, and I’m probably just taking it out here.

[quote]Schwarzenegger wrote:
Mike Roussell’s diet approach is rehashing basic principles. I hope that isn’t new to anyone, and the reason why it works is the same reason other diets work. Sort of that “many programs, same principles” things going on. I’m not bashing it, but don’t think it’s magic. I would hope anyone would use those principles peri-workout in some fashion regardless of their diet. I will also mention that prescribing set amounts of intake of BCAA, protein, etc. is dumb, as each person requires different levels of nutrients. I understand there is a maximum level of carbohydrate, protein, and volume of digestion, but he certainly isn’t addressing that here.

Second, fasting long-term is stupid. Sure it can keep you relatively lean, but it really limits the size you will hold. If you’re looking to have the Hollywood “small and shredded” look, go for it. I’m not bashing it, but just understand that it may not coordinate with your goals.

Something I’ve been doing it low-carb except for fruits and veggies, with occasional other carb sources. It certainly isn’t low-carb when you add up the totals, but it is much lower in carbs than most dietary approaches. Of course I do this because I can’t eat many carb sources anyway due to allergies.

The main ideas that any effective diet for health, performance, and body composition are: maintain nutrient levels throughout the day, keep insulin under control, consume adequate carbohydrates, proteins, and fats. Sure, these principles can be occluded from time to time for a specific purpose (say, extreme leanness, or extreme performance), but long-term these principles need to be in place for optimal alignment of each of the three areas.

I won’t get into explaining the reasons behind each of these as I’m sure they’re well understood here, but I can go into detail if anyone would like me to. Even though we understand these principles, sometimes we go with extreme ideas for something different, not necessarily because it works. If what we’re doing doesn’t work, or we aren’t really sticking to it, we try something different because different must be better, right? This is how fad diets get so popular. People go from one to next one to the next one…

Anyway, my point is it seems your approach seems a bit extreme for what you’re trying to achieve. Perhaps I’m wrong, and I’m certainly not saying you shouldn’t do it, but take a look at the big picture to make sure it is really a good idea.

Maybe I’m just in one of those moods, which could be a possibility. I just had a personal training meeting at work and some people came to “teach” us about olympic lifts. I wasted 1.5 hours of my life, and I’m probably just taking it out here.[/quote]

     I agree with all your points Schwarz, it's an obvious that people want to jump on the latest. I don't necessarily put myself in that category, especially with the IF. I rather like to try things on the fringe that go against the "norm". I am not going to even try to rehash what I read concerning the scientific basis for IF that has some scientists touting it as a good diet, and it's certainly not for everyone, as no diet is. Rather, let's just say that as a fairly intelligent person, many of the things I read on it looked good enough for me to think it would be something to try, I don't necessarily enjoy, always having to have a frickin meal ready on the hour every 3 hours or so anyway, and in humanity's past this certainly wasn't the case. Who's to say that intermittent fasting while not only doable with few negatives, could even be beneficial? From what I read, it looks quite possible. Often times I have not felt hungry, and have blown off morning meals, and to my surprise would still have a good workout with just my bcaa's and some whey etc. I only have done this a few times because of the overwhelming assumption according to the bb community that this would be totally counterprocuctive. I do follow to a certain degree what most say works. But it struck me after reading further on it, and seeing many having good results. 

          I am starting out with this regular tkd style anyway for the record, so let's stick to that for now, until I have more knowledge on the other,(IF).

       For now I'm going to do the usual, 5-6 meals, with only the pre/post wkout window for the simple and moderate gi carbs. The rest of the day, prior and post wkout, will be meats and other pro sources, with the minimul carbs found in fibrous veggies, and of course healthy fats. 

So it’s basicly very similar to the AD, but tossing the idea of the weekend carb up out the window. For me I never noticed any significant “anabolic response” from the high carb weekend, only slight to moderate lethargy/decreased energy, and a slight improvement on the following 2 or 3 workouts, if any. I think it makes much more sense to have a regular input of carbs timed around the wkout, so you have a bit more energy during, and you get the insulin response and full use of the carbs post, so they really don’t have the chance of going to fat stores if done reasonably.
I just think the AD is pretty much outdated now that I’ve fucked with it, and seen how it goes. Hell look at all the different books Mauro put out, the AS for BBing, for PLing, etc, etc. It’s basicly as anyone will know, all the same fucking book, just marketed to difft. subgroups to make a buck. The BB’rs want to think they have a unique one for them, and same with the PLrs. So, there’s a drop in integrity there for me as far as my respect for Dr DiP goes.

           Anyway, that's my plan, and reasoning behind it, I like to experiment and don't really give a fuck what the majority think of anything. Things have been disproved over and over many times in the progress of science. I'm not saying that the IF is the end all, but I am saying that I will check it out, and determine how My body responds to it, as it has intrigued me. So, anyway, like I said earlier, I am in agreement with you Schwarz, everything you said is true, everyone is different, the numbers calculated and so often thrown around like gospel, are not that at all. You just have to get out there, and try what you want to, try to make choices that aren't a waste of time etc. I just go against the grain frequently as you my friend know very well. LOL. 

        Tmoney, I would eat pretty much anything but balance it on the IF, probably still lesser carbs, mod pro, and mod fat. And not try to eat a shitload of meals, as that doesn't make sense in a small time frame, but rather bigger meals with more protein than what everyone says we can digest at a sitting...you know more of the same bullshit, like.."don't eat more than 30g's..you won't be able to digest it" etc. So probably 3-4 bigger meals. 

    Our ancestors were pretty lean, and they weren't sitting down after a kill thinking, "I better not eat that other drumstick, I already had enough protein". They ate and filled the belly and seemed to do well. But that's just another example, I'm no expert on anything.

         Ok, that's the end of my post, hahaha, I am so tired of studying right now, I had to take a break and go off myself a tad.

      thanks for the correspondance and good points as usual Schwarz, and thanks for dropping by Tmoney.

      cheers gang, enjoy the rest of the weekend!
                   ToneBone

Yeah, the AD has some good principles, but isn’t a GREAT diet by any means. I took what worked and left the rest. It seems you plan to do the same, which I would expect of you, so that’s good. I don’t think intermittent fasting is such a bad idea, but if you plan on eating every day 11am-6pm or whatever, that just won’t cut it.

Our ancestors were likely lean, but they certainly weren’t very large either. Once you get past a certain point it’s a whole different ball game. Since not working out as much (shoulder), increasing cardio, and dropping from 240 to 225 pounds, I have been able to follow a more “ancestral” approach to dieting. I eat when I’m hungry, which is anywhere from two to five times per day. I don’t keep track of what I eat, I just eat mostly fat and protein with fruits and veggies. My activity patterns as stated match a much more ancestral lifestyle, and I look and feel great, albeit 15 pounds lighter. This is what I would call “normal” living. But once you get into high performance or extreme body composition and proportions the rules change a bit. There is no way you’ll be an elite athlete or bodybuilder on a dietary approach like this, or something less structured.

Of course you know this. I’m just saying I wasn’t trying to say you are wrong about anything, just that some people don’t realize that going to that next level requires a very structured approach. Of course it doesn’t seem like you’re into elite athletics or bodybuilding, so there’s no reason you can’t look great and feel great with a “normal” approach, much as I’m doing now.

Are you going to be posting occasional updates here, or in your profile?

[quote]Schwarzenegger wrote:
Yeah, the AD has some good principles, but isn’t a GREAT diet by any means. I took what worked and left the rest. It seems you plan to do the same, which I would expect of you, so that’s good. I don’t think intermittent fasting is such a bad idea, but if you plan on eating every day 11am-6pm or whatever, that just won’t cut it.

Our ancestors were likely lean, but they certainly weren’t very large either. Once you get past a certain point it’s a whole different ball game. Since not working out as much (shoulder), increasing cardio, and dropping from 240 to 225 pounds, I have been able to follow a more “ancestral” approach to dieting. I eat when I’m hungry, which is anywhere from two to five times per day. I don’t keep track of what I eat, I just eat mostly fat and protein with fruits and veggies. My activity patterns as stated match a much more ancestral lifestyle, and I look and feel great, albeit 15 pounds lighter. This is what I would call “normal” living. But once you get into high performance or extreme body composition and proportions the rules change a bit. There is no way you’ll be an elite athlete or bodybuilder on a dietary approach like this, or something less structured.

Of course you know this. I’m just saying I wasn’t trying to say you are wrong about anything, just that some people don’t realize that going to that next level requires a very structured approach. Of course it doesn’t seem like you’re into elite athletics or bodybuilding, so there’s no reason you can’t look great and feel great with a “normal” approach, much as I’m doing now.

Are you going to be posting occasional updates here, or in your profile?[/quote]

          I hear you buddy, I certainly don't have anywhere near that level of development, but I do have a "look" of someone who works out regularly, as classmates etc. sometimes comment about that. I AM trying to take hypertrophy as far as makes sense though also, given my genetics, lifestyle and time/financial status. That's why I do what I do. I have made really good progress, and am trying to get to the next level, as I think I have in me several more "levels" to succeed through. I am not trying to get a whole lot more mass per say, but do want to make some solid lean mass gains, and want to be leaner. I am around 15% right now, and would like to be around 10% with the same or more muscle. I think it's totally doable, but will take time and hard work of course. 

Right now, I am, as you know, taking a break from the DC, and my delts/joints need more of the volume of varied exercise, higher rep type training. I haven’t lost size when I switch it up like this, in fact it helps to go back and forth between the two approaches for me. So, I really want to see how lean I can get, but want to keep muscle loss at a minimum of course. So that’s why I am looking at the IF and all, I don’t need a huge amount of calorie intake. If you remember when I did the all oral cycles etc, my caloric level was always what most considered “low”. My size and activity dictates that. But I still make good solid gains with training and with/without the “help” of anabolics. So, that’s what I’m about. You have made a way bigger metamorphisis than what I am doing, and I think it’s great what you’re doing now, as far as taking that different approach to your training and nutrition too. We are alike in some respects that way. You made solid fuckin gains that won’t slip away IMO. I want to do the same, but with my smaller steps into the dark side and in general, I will never be as massive and cut as you are, but I can get the same look on a smaller scale, which is where I’m trying to go.

      I think I'll keep updates here, as there is more feedback and all, and I might bring some of these ideas out to the masses like I have tried to do in our other realm. So I'll do this TKD for a couple months with more cardio, and see how that goes, and then if I have enough info on the IF I'll do that for a couple also, and we'll have something to look at real world.

           thanks for stoppin by as always,

                 ToneBone

Looks like a good approach. Though I fail to see how the diet is ketogenic with that amount of carbs. You wouldn’t actually be in ketosis. Unless I’m misunderstanding what a ketogenc diet in this context actually means.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Looks like a good approach. Though I fail to see how the diet is ketogenic with that amount of carbs. You wouldn’t actually be in ketosis. Unless I’m misunderstanding what a ketogenc diet in this context actually means.[/quote]

         Yeah there is some discrepancy about that, the number is normally under 30g CHO/day. And theory goes that the carbs taken in around workout wouldn't really count towards the 30g. Some say it would, some say it won't. Strictly speaking I would tend to think the pre/wkout carbs wouldn't have to be counted, and probably some of the post would. Nonetheless, it is called a targeted Ketogenic diet since the rest of the time there are no to very few carbs taken in, so that's what I called it here. Whether or not I'm technically in ketosis doesn't matter to me. Some call the AD keto, most don't. I find it depends on the persons individual metabolism etc, more than a fixed number anyway, so there ya go.
    I mean you can take a group of guys on the AD, give them all keto sticks, and some of them will be in ketosis, and some won't. You see, even if all are at the same number, under 30g. So, that's what Schwarz and I were talking about, set numbers just don't work for every person, period.

                  ToneBone
        Ok, so here it is about the 3rd or 4th day of eating targeted style, and I'm dropping at about the same speed as when on the AD during carb depletion. I was eating anything, but somewhat cleanly since stopping the AD a while back, and put on around 5-7 pounds of carb smoothness. Now I am down to 190 again, and am feeling better overall during the day. So that's good so far. I think I'll get a malto based carb product to use for this wkout time too, to supplement any food consumed and to inure a good slin spike. I will most likely have some kind of a cheat window on weekends, but it will be a lot smaller than the 36-48 hours Mauro recommends on the AD.

         Like around one or two meals of shit, period. To keep the metabo from thinking I am trying to starve. The extended period of carbing up on the AD always had me going too many steps backward even with clean carb sources. I think this will be a lot more stable.

         Don't you guys just love when you walk into a health food store, and the quack at the desk is more than eager to "help" you with selecting things? It's about as bad as the "personal trainers" I used to see at the gyms since it became more mainstream. What a joke. The girl didn't even know what Vinpocetine was, or the carb product I was talking about. Literally clueless. Oh well, it's good for a laugh I guess.

         Anyway, I'll keep a log here in moderate detail about how it goes.

                 ToneBone
     Here is a fellow who has good success with most of his clients using IF.


   http://leangains.com/

    In the top right corner is an interview with Martin, which touches on the subject in a general way.

Granted these guys are not huge at all, but made significant progress in fat loss and muscle retention.
It’s interesting and thought it would make a quick read on the subject. There are other articles out there that go into more detail about the anti-aging and neurological benefits that are believed to be gained from it as well. Google Intermittent Fasting if you are one who is interested in this stuff. 16 hours seems to be what this guy goes with.

         I don't see much on it so I thought I would put this tidbit out here.

                   ToneBone

[quote]InTheZone wrote:
Don’t you guys just love when you walk into a health food store, and the quack at the desk is more than eager to “help” you with selecting things? It’s about as bad as the “personal trainers” I used to see at the gyms since it became more mainstream. What a joke. The girl didn’t even know what Vinpocetine was, or the carb product I was talking about. Literally clueless. Oh well, it’s good for a laugh I guess.[/quote]

Something like this?

“Vinpocetine? I’ve never heard of it, so it must not be that great. Since I work in a supplement store I know everything about the products that actually work. You should try this new product, Brain Blast 2000! It’s got 5x the caffeine so you’ll be able to stay up all night and study! Carbs? Carbs are bad. You should try this new fat burning energy drink! It’s got plenty of caffeine and sugar to keep your energy up so you have the energy to work out!”

[quote]Schwarzenegger wrote:
InTheZone wrote:
Don’t you guys just love when you walk into a health food store, and the quack at the desk is more than eager to “help” you with selecting things? It’s about as bad as the “personal trainers” I used to see at the gyms since it became more mainstream. What a joke. The girl didn’t even know what Vinpocetine was, or the carb product I was talking about. Literally clueless. Oh well, it’s good for a laugh I guess.

Something like this?

“Vinpocetine? I’ve never heard of it, so it must not be that great. Since I work in a supplement store I know everything about the products that actually work. You should try this new product, Brain Blast 2000! It’s got 5x the caffeine so you’ll be able to stay up all night and study! Carbs? Carbs are bad. You should try this new fat burning energy drink! It’s got plenty of caffeine and sugar to keep your energy up so you have the energy to work out!”[/quote]

           Exactly. They look at you like, "If I don't know about it, why would you want it? After all, I'm a professional health food store clerk".

Hey Tone just some more information about the style diet you are looking into.

www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3398

That ironaddict is a pretty smart cookie(friend of Dante’s as well)

[quote]Scott M wrote:
Hey Tone just some more information about the style diet you are looking into.

www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3398

That ironaddict is a pretty smart cookie(friend of Dante’s as well)[/quote]

      Thanks Scott, I'll be checkin it out in a bit.

                 TBN