I understand wanting homeostasis to occur, but really see any longer then 4 weeks as overkill.
Then we disagree. I will tell you that I seriously doubt the guys running up and down in weight that often from the start are making the most progress. .[/quote]
Too true. Unfortunately for years I yo-yo’d alot and as you stated in another post in this thread, I ate junky fatty food at those times. Not healthy indeed- and in itself leads to the yo-yo-ing. I harp alot on this to beginners [ this being one area I can give good advice I know about] ; eat healthy- kill the junk food from your diet, proper and better progress will be made. I bulked the last 6 months, adding 30lbs and now I indeed am planning on maintaining my weight the next couple of months before I do the cutting phase.
Definitly some interesting points being brought up here.
My question has more to do with strength gains than body composition. For me, body comp is much less of a goal because I’m naturally ridiculously skinny- I know if I do get a little more fat on me than I’d like I can lose it in a week or two. However, my main concern is just getting stronger.
Do you guys think it is more beneficial to quickly gain weight and then hold that for a little bit and then gain more weight, etc.? Or do you think it is more beneficial to just slowly gain whatever you can? My primary concern is athletics but obviously I’d like to look good too.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
Do you guys think it is more beneficial to quickly gain weight and then hold that for a little bit and then gain more weight, etc.? Or do you think it is more beneficial to just slowly gain whatever you can? My primary concern is athletics but obviously I’d like to look good too.[/quote]
It doesn’t matter if it is quickly gained or not. If you are “ridiculously skinny”, it is because of your food intake. You won’t be getting much stronger without gaining any size so I don’t understand why your goal wouldn’t ALSO be weight gain. Someone significantly underweight could put weight on quickly and much of it could be lean body mass.
Genetics as a factor also brings in too many variables to be able to answer a question like you asked. It is like asking, “how long is a piece of string?”. Very often, the wrong question is being asked. Why aren’t you simply concerned with adding more weight? Why would someone “ridiculously skinny” even mention how they can lose fat in a week or two? Why would that even be a minor concern for you?
I don’t really think that with my body type and how it runs that I really need to do much of a “cut” per se.
I’ll tell you guys what I am looking forward to doing at the end of my bulk.
I intend on replacing some of my crappier meals like microwavable burritos with something healthier and more filling. Chicken and brown rice with some steamed veggies, etc. Also I am really looking forward to replacing a lot of the milk I drink with Water. I have been drinking over half a gallon of milk a day and have had dangerous gas. That will pretty much be the brunt of my change.
I’ll keep in mind to make changes gradually(a few hundred calories at a time)to see what happens.[/quote]
Read everything on diet you can here. Especially by Berardi. Just cleaning up your diet may be enough for you, as you said. Eating right will build you up faster, and with less fat gain to boot.
A bad diet is counterproductive. Most likely you would have more muscle and less fat now had you eaten right.
What are your ultimate goals anyway? The answers you seek are truly dependant on that.
Well there really is nothing good about yoyo dieting. I was never advocating that, nor jumping back and forth from bulk to diet each and every month. I was actually beginning to think there was some miscommunication between Prof X and I.
When bulking, if a person has put on too much fat, I don’t see the problem with stripping off some of that fat, and then resuming the bulking. Though as I said before, you need to watch it very carefully, and keep a very close eye on your LBM while doing this. Some might just need to use the 5% drop in calories like Thibeaudau listed for maintenance to do that.
The problem comes in when people put on 5 pounds of muscle, and 50 pounds of fat, then they cut the fat to try to find those 5 pounds, and do it all over again.
Again I am still convinced there is some genetics involved here. Any time I have dieted, other then water weight, I have not really lost any muscle. I have a harder time budging that fat off of me, but the only time I saw my LBM drop too dramatically while dieting was when I tried the fat fast diet. I didn’t stay on that very long.
I know a lot of people are on the opposite side of the coin from where I am at. This is actually why I advocated a real slow fat loss timeframe for Chickenmcnug as opposed to a quicker drop, and the idea of keeping a real close eye on his LBM. Although I didn’t know how bad his diet really was.
Everyone needs to find out how their bodies respond, and train and diet accordingly. I will test how a 6 week moderation does for me after my next bulk.
Read everything on diet you can here. Especially by Berardi. Just cleaning up your diet may be enough for you, as you said. Eating right will build you up faster, and with less fat gain to boot.
A bad diet is counterproductive. Most likely you would have more muscle and less fat now had you eaten right.
What are your ultimate goals anyway? The answers you seek are truly dependant on that.[/quote]
Well, I have been reading here for awhile and believe it or not am studying nutrition at school. So I know what and how I should be eating. And I would say I eat fairly clean right now. But 1-2 meals a day I just need something quick and I have looked all over and found some nukable burritos with no transfats and fairly low amount of saturated fats. whole Wheat Eggos with a little soft serve margarine and syrup are another quick fix. I use them if i am running late before work and only have 10 minutes to eat. etc. My diet otherwise consists of plenty of milk, protein powder, 100% whole wheat breads/pasta, deli meat, all natural pb, etc.
The thing my diet is lacking is more vegetables. I might eat fruits and veggies 1x a day. I know I should probably have one or the other with each meal. Another thing I would like to change if I had the money available to do so is to base more of my protein intake on meats than milk and protein powder. But that can wait.
I think that I am putting on a good deal of muscle but it would have been more lean if I had paid attention to calorie counts and paced my gains.
One thing I noticed that as a previous “hard gainer”, its not really that detrimental in the grand scheme of things to relax on the diet if I am running late. The calories seem to be whats important. If you don’t get that surplus you won’t grow. Of course this is comming from an natural skinny guy’s point of view. It all depends on individual’s metabolism and goals like you said.
[quote]Chickenmcnug wrote:
One thing I noticed that as a previous “hard gainer”, its not really that detrimental in the grand scheme of things to relax on the diet if I am running late. The calories seem to be whats important. If you don’t get that surplus you won’t grow. Of course this is comming from an natural skinny guy’s point of view. It all depends on individual’s metabolism and goals like you said.
[/quote]
This “hardgainer” label is overused. Skinny does not mean “hardgainer”. I was skinny as a kid. I doubt anyone would call me a “hardgainer”. I was a kid with a fast metabolism, which simply meant I needed more calories to grow. If people would quit labeling themselves like this, more would make much more progress.
If you don’t believe you can even reach a certain level, you damn sure won’t get there.
This “hardgainer” label is overused. Skinny does not mean “hardgainer”. I was skinny as a kid. I doubt anyone would call me a “hardgainer”. I was a kid with a fast metabolism, which simply meant I needed more calories to grow. If people would quit labeling themselves like this, more would make much more progress.
If you don’t believe you can even reach a certain level, you damn sure won’t get there.[/quote]
Amen on both accounts. My entire adult life (except the past 6 months) I blamed my near-anorexic body on being a “hardgainer” even though I couldn’t even tell you exactly what it meant to be a hardgainer.
Once I learned how to eat right (ie: eat enough) I’ve been putting weight on steadilly for the past 6 months at around 1 to 2 lbs. a week. No “hardgainer” secrect. Just eating a ton of mostly clean food, lifting heavy, and getting enough sleep.
And I wouldn’t have been able to do any of it if I would have kept believing that I couldn’t because I was a “hardgainer” or whatever.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Chickenmcnug wrote:
One thing I noticed that as a previous “hard gainer”, its not really that detrimental in the grand scheme of things to relax on the diet if I am running late. The calories seem to be whats important. If you don’t get that surplus you won’t grow. Of course this is comming from an natural skinny guy’s point of view. It all depends on individual’s metabolism and goals like you said.
This “hardgainer” label is overused. Skinny does not mean “hardgainer”. I was skinny as a kid. I doubt anyone would call me a “hardgainer”. I was a kid with a fast metabolism, which simply meant I needed more calories to grow. If people would quit labeling themselves like this, more would make much more progress.
If you don’t believe you can even reach a certain level, you damn sure won’t get there.
[/quote]
I agree 100%, not trying to hijack here(well not too much) but I think way too many people use the hard gainer excuse for their lack of results. I also think people use the FFB as an excuse for their lack of results as well. I used to be fat, I didn’t watch my overall caloric intake,didn’t get enough protein nor did I make sure I got the proper EFAs and nutrients to promote a leaner healthier body. All thats changed sinced I started busting my ass in the gym and like magic I’m not fat anymore.
This “hardgainer” label is overused. Skinny does not mean “hardgainer”. I was skinny as a kid. I doubt anyone would call me a “hardgainer”. I was a kid with a fast metabolism, which simply meant I needed more calories to grow. If people would quit labeling themselves like this, more would make much more progress.
If you don’t believe you can even reach a certain level, you damn sure won’t get there.
[/quote]
LOL, sorry guys. Thats why I put the words hard gainer in quotation marks. To show that it is a rather meaningless label. My sarcasm wasn’t detected obviously.
I 100% agree with you and realize(even stated earlier in this thread) that I just needed more calories.
Keep it simple my friend, don’t use the scale as a basis of progres, use the mirror instead.
[quote]Chickenmcnug wrote:
Ok, here is the situation. I have recently went from approx 170-185lbs @ 6’1". My goal is to get to between 190-200lbs by summer. This will happen no problem.
I have been putting on about 3lbs a week. I know I should be putting on around 0.5-1lb of muscle a week and because of this I am probably putting on a bit more fat, but I don’t really care. I am a naturally lean guy and the weight gain i would say is about 75% muscle atleast. I am seeing results and I am happy with it. At that rate I am expecting to hit the low end of my goal range (190lbs) in 2-5 weeks.
I have a few questions as to what to do after I hit my goal.
I recall seeing Px state many times that you should stick at that weight for a few months to get your body used to carrying it before cutting. Approximately how long should I wait before cutting?
I have been eating a ton of food each day but have not been logging it. Because of this, I have no idea my total calories. All i have is an estimate between 3000-3600 kcal but could potentially be a bit higher. I have a program at school that I can use to analyze my diet though. Once I get a more accurate kcal estimate and am ready to cut, What is the procedure?
My strength has gone up dramatically in most of my lifts. My pull-up strength seems to have gone down. Has anyone had any similar results while bulking?
This question is really meaningless. I just want to see if I have the theory correct. I intend on getting my BF measured. Lets say I want to be a lean 12% at 190lbs for summer. lets say I am approx 15% right now at 185. Lets also say that I stay at approximately 15% while gaining weight. 190lbs x 15%Bf = 28.5lbs of BF. 190lbs x 12%BF = 22.8lbs of BF. So that means I would need to get to approx 196 lbs before cutting? I know my math is funky but does that sound about right?[/quote]
I’m sorry if you already addressed this, but why have you decided to stop bulking?
If it’s a fat issue, just clean things up a bit and don’t increase your calories as fast (or maintain them if that’s more appropriate).
If you’re happy with your bulk, why stop the train? And stopping because you’ve reached some number (unless it’s like 270 or something) is not a good reason!
This has been a very helpful thread. I just finished a few months of reducing body fat on a Lifting for Fat Loss type program. Then I switched to about a month of maintenance (about 3200 cals for me) and started a “bulking” program a week ago with Total Body Training. Luckily this thread came along because my original plan was to eat over maintenance for 10 weeks and then loose fat for 10 weeks to be in shape for the beach by mid-July.
After reading this I came up with this new plan and wanted to know what you all think (my goals are to be muscular and around 10% bf or a bit less–I’m currently 185 and 13% bf).
5 weeks “bulk 1” 3500 cals (10% over)
5 weeks “bulk 2” 3700 cals (another 5%)
5 weeks stabilize 3500 cals (down 5%)
5 weeks “cut 1” 3100 cals
5 weeks “cut 2” 2700 cals and maybe dropping 100 per week if fat loss slows.
This will still put me in shape in 6 mos. in time for my mid-July beach vacation which is why I chose 5 week periods instead of 6-8 weeks. DO these amounts look OK or should I change some of them? Thanks-
[quote]djnleffler wrote:
This has been a very helpful thread. I just finished a few months of reducing body fat on a Lifting for Fat Loss type program. Then I switched to about a month of maintenance (about 3200 cals for me) and started a “bulking” program a week ago with Total Body Training. Luckily this thread came along because my original plan was to eat over maintenance for 10 weeks and then loose fat for 10 weeks to be in shape for the beach by mid-July.
After reading this I came up with this new plan and wanted to know what you all think (my goals are to be muscular and around 10% bf or a bit less–I’m currently 185 and 13% bf).
5 weeks “bulk 1” 3500 cals (10% over)
5 weeks “bulk 2” 3700 cals (another 5%)
5 weeks stabilize 3500 cals (down 5%)
5 weeks “cut 1” 3100 cals
5 weeks “cut 2” 2700 cals and maybe dropping 100 per week if fat loss slows.
This will still put me in shape in 6 mos. in time for my mid-July beach vacation which is why I chose 5 week periods instead of 6-8 weeks. DO these amounts look OK or should I change some of them? Thanks-[/quote]
Remember it’s not just a matter of chugging down ‘calories’. It’s going to be how you breakdown the type of calories you intake… ie, ratio of proteins/carbs/fats. Do research here using relevant articles on that and when to eat and what to eat, ie-based around your workouts.
Keep your intake of saturated fats at the minimal recommended amount, and Omega 6 fats in a good ratio to your Omega 3 fats. I mention it since such overlooked pointers in your food intake could make difference in you feeling mentally/physically healthy and vital to not feel lethargic during your 6 month plan.
Remember it’s not just a matter of chugging down ‘calories’. It’s going to be how you breakdown the type of calories you intake… ie, ratio of proteins/carbs/fats. Do research here using relevant articles on that and when to eat and what to eat, ie-based around your workouts.
Keep your intake of saturated fats at the minimal recommended amount, and Omega 6 fats in a good ratio to your Omega 3 fats. I mention it since such overlooked pointers in your food intake could make difference in you feeling mentally/physically healthy and vital to not feel lethargic during your 6 month plan.[/quote]
I keep a food log and keep track of macronutrients etc. I have 200 to 250 g of protein per day, about 30% fat and the rest carbs–anywhere from 300 to 450 g for now depending on if it’s a lifting day or not when I have 100 extra g of carbs. I eat really clean–fruits, veges, oatmeal, egg whites, Grow!–er um Metabolic Drive and healthy fats: nuts, avacados, Udo’s, fish oil, olive oil etc. I’ve read all the Berardi stuff and have been applying good eating habits for about six months now.
I’m probably on a 30/40/30 breakdown depending on my intake for the day–I’m just wondering if my caloric intake looks good (made up of “clean” foods) and the time frame and all. Thanks, -D
Remember it’s not just a matter of chugging down ‘calories’. It’s going to be how you breakdown the type of calories you intake… ie, ratio of proteins/carbs/fats. Do research here using relevant articles on that and when to eat and what to eat, ie-based around your workouts.
Keep your intake of saturated fats at the minimal recommended amount, and Omega 6 fats in a good ratio to your Omega 3 fats. I mention it since such overlooked pointers in your food intake could make difference in you feeling mentally/physically healthy and vital to not feel lethargic during your 6 month plan.
I keep a food log and keep track of macronutrients etc. I have 200 to 250 g of protein per day, about 30% fat and the rest carbs–anywhere from 300 to 450 g for now depending on if it’s a lifting day or not when I have 100 extra g of carbs. I eat really clean–fruits, veges, oatmeal, egg whites, Grow!–er um Metabolic Drive and healthy fats: nuts, avacados, Udo’s, fish oil, olive oil etc. I’ve read all the Berardi stuff and have been applying good eating habits for about six months now.
I’m probably on a 30/40/30 breakdown depending on my intake for the day–I’m just wondering if my caloric intake looks good (made up of “clean” foods) and the time frame and all. Thanks, -D
[/quote]
I think it looks good. I understand wanting to keep it healthy when trying to bulk up, to avoid extra fat gained as well as for health reasons but keep in mind that getting the overall calories is the key to gaining weight.
[quote]Konstantine wrote:
Keep it simple my friend, don’t use the scale as a basis of progres, use the mirror instead.
[/quote]
That seems like a fatloss tip to me. I would understand your point were I trying to cut. That would be a different story entirely.
When bulking you need to know if you are gaining weight. How am I supposed to know if I am gaining weight without using a scale? If I gained 1lb in a week, its not really that noticeable. If I was to go by the mirror I would eat so much that I felt like crap, I would gain like 5lbs in that one week(with a higher % of fat). The other possability would be that I would actually gain weight, maybe a lb or two, but i wouldnt’ look that different and I would get discouraged and quit. I need to scale to tell me if I am gaining weight or if I should take in more calories.
[quote]Natural Nate wrote:
I’m sorry if you already addressed this, but why have you decided to stop bulking?
If it’s a fat issue, just clean things up a bit and don’t increase your calories as fast (or maintain them if that’s more appropriate).
If you’re happy with your bulk, why stop the train? And stopping because you’ve reached some number (unless it’s like 270 or something) is not a good reason![/quote]
To tell you the truth, I am debating on whether to continue the bulk and try to go beyond 200. I understand that at my height(6’1") that I should probably realisticly be around 200lbs(i think).
I guess I will have to make that decision when the time comes, by how I see myself in the mirror and If I am happy with it.
I have a few reasons to stop the bulking process though:
Summer will be comming around and I enjoy hitting the beach and boogeyboarding. I would like to have a beach body.
I was feeling sluggish and lethargic some days from eating so much that I was always digesting food. Recently I think my stomach has expanded and I am capable of packing away a lot more calories. So this one isn’t that big of a deal anymore. I am, however, looking forward to eating a bit less.
I think my weight is shooting up faster than my strength. I have been getting great strength gains. But i think it might be beneficial to maintain my weight and wait till my strength gains plateu again. If I were to do this, I would assume that when I resumed bulking in the fall my weight would probably shoot up quickly.
What do you guys think? When It comes down to it, I have a good feeling that I will still want some more muscle mass. Should I continue the bulk since “the train is rolling”? Did my 3rd point seem like a good idea?
This is probably a question I should ask when I get there. I am looking too far into the future. The main thing is to concentrate on my weekly goals until then.