[quote]PGJ wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
CELTIC-DEVIL wrote:
THis is a terrible thing for sure,
But I’m not so sure the recent trend of posting up human tradgedies in relation to child molestation is a good one.
It’s a terrible crime for sure, but there have been quite a few threads lately on basically the same thing. Sure, we need to be aware of the dangers out there and I can understand why people feel angry about these crimes…i feel angry… but i gotta wonder what the point of all these similar threads is…
The more people that are aware of this real tragedy in our society, the more likely it is that it will be dealt with. Most of us don’t want to think about such things, I know. But it won’t go away by simply ignoring it or being oblivious.
Great point. Satan does exist. People want to sugar coat that fact by calling it a “psychological disorder”. It’s pure evil. Plain and simple. Ignoring it won’t make it go away. Giving it a clinical name only justifies it. Just like some people are filled with the Holy Spirit, some people are filled with the spirit of Satan.
I expect the athiests to chime in very soon with mounds of scientific evidence to disprove this.
[/quote]
There’s no more or no less scientific evidence to prove or disprove the existence of Satan than their is for God. [although there’s plenty of scientific evidence to show that the brains of sociopaths and perverts do function differently than others]. It certainly doesn’t absolve most of responsibilty for their actions. Assuming they exist, most people either CHOOSE to embrace good and God or embrace evil and Satan. There are very few ‘victims’. Whether you want to construe them as slaves to Satan or a psychological disorder. I do believe that there is a very small fraction of people whose cognitive function is so grossly impaired and distorted that they don’t know right from wrong. And commit atrocious acts through very little fault of their own. That does not mean that this extremely small sub-group should not be incapacitated and imprisoned for life or removed from this planet to prevent them from hurting others.
[quote]lizard king wrote:
Oh that is right, it is not those people’s fault that they raped and murdered the child-- Satan made them do it. Do you even know what the word satan means and how it originated? Evil is as evil does Forrest; everyone should assume responsibility for their actions. If it is proved that those worthless pieces of protoplasm actually committed the crime, then they should be publicly eviscerated. And no, before you jump to your assumptions, I am not an atheist; I am a baptized Southern Baptist with a golden ticket to Heaven.
[/quote]
i think what he meant what was that the man in questions allowed himself to succumb to “the temptations of the devil”? In other words by giving in to urges to do evil, you are consciously allowing Satan to control your actions. With that said I Satan as symbolic.
[quote]Hanzo wrote:
nephorm wrote:
Thai_Bxr wrote:
If ultimate good exists, then ultimate evil must also exist.
That isn’t true. Everything isn’t guaranteed an opposite.
it’s true to the degree that “good” exists on a continuum, where the lack of good is “evil”. [/quote]
But we could conceive of a Universe in which men become progressively more good as generations pass. “Ultimate good” is by definition fixed, but the most deficient good, or the worst evil, would become less and less distant from ultimate good on the continuum. There is no guarantee of an equal and opposite evil to oppose good. Absence of good isn’t evil anyway, if evil is an active force, and lack of good is merely impersonal.
Unless, of course, one intends to use “ultimate” to refer only to the “last” or “furthest point” of each, which trivializes the statement and turns it into a tautology.
Further, Christianity doesn’t even assert this about Satan. God is perfectly good, but Satan cannot be perfectly evil.
There’s no more or no less scientific evidence to prove or disprove the existence of Satan than their is for God. [although there’s plenty of scientific evidence to show that the brains of sociopaths and perverts do function differently than others]. It certainly doesn’t absolve most of responsibilty for their actions. Assuming they exist, most people either CHOOSE to embrace good and God or embrace evil and Satan. There are very few ‘victims’. Whether you want to construe them as slaves to Satan or a psychological disorder. I do believe that there is a very small fraction of people whose cognitive function is so grossly impaired and distorted that they don’t know right from wrong. And commit atrocious acts through very little fault of their own. That does not mean that this extremely small sub-group should not be incapacitated and imprisoned for life or removed from this planet to prevent them from hurting others.[/quote]
Very good points. There are some legitimately insane people out there, then there are the truly frightening people who are just cruel and evil. They DO know right from wrong, and wrong is an attraction. There are different levels of this.
Some people enjoy watching others get hurt (sports injuries, suicide videos, snuff films). There are entire websites dedicated to videos of autopsies, accident video, self mutilation, and all things bloody and real. Some people take their kids to the “Saw” movies. I believe this can desensitize people.
Some people actually do these kinds of things to others (Ted Bundy, Saddam, Jack the Ripper…)
Some people have a hard time even watching the news and blood makes them physically ill.
Some people just get-off on human suffering. Has there even been a movie about the graphic torture and mutilation of animals? Why is that?
The danger is classifing evil as a mental illness. Like I said, some people are truly crazy, but some are just evil.
[quote]lizard king wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Just like some people are filled with the Holy Spirit, some people are filled with the spirit of Satan.
Oh that is right, it is not those people’s fault that they raped and murdered the child-- Satan made them do it. Do you even know what the word satan means and how it originated? Evil is as evil does Forrest; everyone should assume responsibility for their actions. If it is proved that those worthless pieces of protoplasm actually committed the crime, then they should be publicly eviscerated. And no, before you jump to your assumptions, I am not an atheist; I am a baptized Southern Baptist with a golden ticket to Heaven.
[/quote]
You misunderstood my point. I believe some people choose to be led by satan. I, too, am a born again Christian. I believe in Christian morality. I believe it is the right thing to do. It was a conscious decision.
Others choose Satan and evil. Some people choose to do bad things. That is their decision. Somehow, something has convinced them that the wrong thing is the best thing to do. It is inconceivable that a grown man or woman does not know that torturing, molesting and killing a child is wrong. THAT is pure satanic evil.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
Hanzo wrote:
nephorm wrote:
Thai_Bxr wrote:
If ultimate good exists, then ultimate evil must also exist.
That isn’t true. Everything isn’t guaranteed an opposite.
it’s true to the degree that “good” exists on a continuum, where the lack of good is “evil”.
But we could conceive of a Universe in which men become progressively more good as generations pass. “Ultimate good” is by definition fixed, but the most deficient good, or the worst evil, would become less and less distant from ultimate good on the continuum. There is no guarantee of an equal and opposite evil to oppose good. Absence of good isn’t evil anyway, if evil is an active force, and lack of good is merely impersonal.
Unless, of course, one intends to use “ultimate” to refer only to the “last” or “furthest point” of each, which trivializes the statement and turns it into a tautology.
Further, Christianity doesn’t even assert this about Satan. God is perfectly good, but Satan cannot be perfectly evil.[/quote]
But one would have to define an ultimate good as well. The term good is thrown around rather loosely in Christian cirles. It should be read more as God is ultimate justice.
I like RC sproul’s thoughts on it. That God can only be good to those who have accepted him, and he is merciful to those who have not. However his mercy ends at the point of his judgement. This however is very OT, but I found your thoughts on defining good/evil as not requiring opposites interesting.
Although I would say that justice and injustice would most certainly require polar opposites.
[quote]lizard king wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Just like some people are filled with the Holy Spirit, some people are filled with the spirit of Satan.
Oh that is right, it is not those people’s fault that they raped and murdered the child-- Satan made them do it. Do you even know what the word satan means and how it originated? Evil is as evil does Forrest; everyone should assume responsibility for their actions. If it is proved that those worthless pieces of protoplasm actually committed the crime, then they should be publicly eviscerated. And no, before you jump to your assumptions, I am not an atheist; I am a baptized Southern Baptist with a golden ticket to Heaven.
[/quote]
The common thought is he is an adversary of God. If I remember correctly hebrews definitions attribute him more as an agent of God
than an enemy.
Christianity and Jesus more specifically attibute him as an enemy of God, and a very active one at that.
שׂטן
śâṭân
saw-tawn’
From H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch enemy of good: - adversary, Satan, withstand.
As for his origins I would be interested to put your thoughts to the test.
[quote]haney1 wrote:
But one would have to define an ultimate good as well. The term good is thrown around rather loosely in Christian cirles. It should be read more as God is ultimate justice.
[/quote]
But God is also conceived to be merciful, which contradicts justice. It has to, because for most Christians all human beings sin, and justice would demand damnation for our defects. That God is merciful (and thus above pure justice)is central.
Justice and injustice, good and evil, must exist in our minds as opposites. That is, for us to understand and appreciate good, we must have some notion of bad. But everything we conceive needn’t have a counterpart in the world. So it depends on what you mean by “requiring opposites.” We must be able to distinguish the good or the just from other things to know them, and they must be distinguishable to exist, but that which they are distinguishable from needn’t exist. It need only be imagined or understood.
The ninth of The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth states “Do not harm little children.”
Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
When in another?s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
Do not harm little children.
Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.
I think humans spend too much time trying to find an answer to EVERYTHING. I believe there are things we are not meant to understand. I believe there are things beyond our comprehension, even if explained in detail. It’s like trying to explain quantum physics to a 1st grade class. No matter how much you explain it, they will not understand, so why even bother trying? God knows all, and everything happens for a reason according to his plan. He doesn’t need to explain his reasoning. A father isn’t required to tell his children “why”. In the end we will understand. The smartest human is like an infant compared to God.
[quote]doogie wrote:
The ninth of The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth states “Do not harm little children.”
Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
When in another?s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
Do not harm little children.
Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.
[/quote]
That is because Antoine laveigh(sp?)
invented the church of Satan to mock Christians. He is more into being humanist than he is into worship “Satan”.
Which is obvious since he doesn’t believe God or Satan exist.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
haney1 wrote:
But God is also conceived to be merciful, which contradicts justice. It has to, because for most Christians all human beings sin, and justice would demand damnation for our defects. That God is merciful (and thus above pure justice)is central.
[/quote]
I will requote my previous post.
“That God can only be good to those who have accepted him, and he is merciful to those who have not. However his mercy ends at the point of his judgement.”
ie. mercy is allowed for a period of time at which point his justice is required. In other words God gives man a chance for some rehab. When man has wasted all of his chances God’s Judgement is executed. It isn’t until God begins to judge that issues his justice.
agreed most of it is for our understanding.
[quote]
So it depends on what you mean by “requiring opposites.” We must be able to distinguish the good or the just from other things to know them, and they must be distinguishable to exist, but that which they are distinguishable from needn’t exist. It need only be imagined or understood.[/quote]
I think there is a tad bit of muddy water in this area.
There is no one “ultimate evil”
There is however in the concept of justice vs. injustice the notion that Justice is suppossed to be in perfect outcome with the crime committed, and injustice is the imperfect outcome to certain said crime. Which would lead to the possibility of polar opposites.
Assuming I have not some how created a logical fallacy. I think you see what I am trying to say. Although I must say I had never considered the idea of evil and good not having an equal opposite.
שׂטן
śâṭân
saw-tawn’
From H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch enemy of good: - adversary, Satan, withstand.
As for his origins I would be interested to put your thoughts to the test.
[/quote]
Well the true test would be to travel back 3,000 years and ask them. Words are merely representations of thoughts, feelings, ideas and Satan mean simply adversary. What is an adversary? An opposing football team, the guy who wants the promotion as well as you, someone you are trying to wrest land from? So now killing your opponent is justified by your god because they are Satan, a giant embodiment of proclaimed evil and hurting them is therefore good. The word satan like sooo many other words, ideals, and practices changes to suit the speaker/writer’s needs. That is why one must be wary of words meanings and intents… never assume that what you believe is what was meant, especially when written in ancient times. After all, the Old Testament / Torah is a self written land deed.