[quote]pat wrote:
I don’t pray for measurable effects. Measurable effects are not important.[/quote]
If it’s not measurable, why are you wasting your breath on it? What good is prayer if it has no noticeable effects?
Short answers; no and no.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Clip, I hope I am not overstepping, with my advice but my objection to male dancing would not be religious. But I do understand you need to make an income. I would advise to remain as anonymous as possible, remember older people will have an advantage on you. It is called experience, be careful, peace[/quote]
I was just thinking about it. Someone suggested it to me and said I may be able to make some good money at it. The girl who told me this is an ex-dancer herself and she said she made so much money from it she had her own house at 18. She said male dancers can make as much money, especially from those fat girls.
[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
I don’t pray for measurable effects. Measurable effects are not important.
If it’s not measurable, why are you wasting your breath on it? What good is prayer if it has no noticeable effects?[/quote]
For once I have to agree with forlife
I prayed that Clip wouldn’t make any more threads, there is obviously no God.
why are people who do not believe in God (and thus the power of prayer) bother replying on a thread seeking information about a practice they do not even partake in?
Isn’t that like asking Push to enumerate the merits of evolution?
As a Christian who has been in some fairly bad times, many self-inflicted, my experience with prayer has been that God answers prayers with OPPORTUNITIES. God doesn’t just miracle your butt into a job, or miracle your marraige back on track or miracle your kid to wake up with his head removed from his ass.
God has answered me with an opportunity to talk with my wife, a way to connect with my son, an opportunity for education to get a better job.
Just my experience. BTW, for a good faith builder, look at organic chemistry and molecular biology. That could not have happened randomly in a tidal pool by chance. That stuff was designed by intelligence.
[quote]clip11 wrote:
My parents and grandparents are fundamentalist pentecostal christians, the grand ole Church of God in Christ. So as you can imagine it was drilled within my head from a early age. To me it was just a list of things I cant do or “Gods gonna get ya!” At the same time I heard God was merciful and kind and took pity on us.
Up until recently, I just accepted whatever I was told. Now that I experience life and I actually have a need to pray, it seems as if it never works. When I pray it is like im talking to a wall. Now im at the point in my life where I wouldnt be considered an atheist, but an agnostic. I want to believe, but there is nothing for me to base that belief on, except a 6000 year old book and what someone else told me. Every time I get an unanswered prayer and my grandparents tell me “What you wanted wasnt the will of God…” it just pushes me more and more away. I cant bring myself to believe in an invisible man in the sky who hasnt really done anything for me. I want to, but the proof is in the pudding.
Now my parents and granparents want to attribute everything to God…for instance, im unemployed and been searching for employment for 8 months. Im starting to realize I may not be able to find a job in which I was making what I previously made. I only made $11 a hour, which may not be alot to some, but it was good enough for me. But I might have to take a job at McDonalds flipping burgers for minimum wage or close to it.
Now the moment I get that job at McDonalds the first thing im going to hear is “Did you thank God?” and in going to be thinking WHAT THE FUCK!!! Is it a miracle that im flipping hamburgers at McDonalds??? I mean im told God is supposed to be the almighty ruler of the universe, yet the best miracle he can do for me is get me a minimum wage job at a fast food resturaunt! Oh hallelujah! I feel like speaking in tongues!
Has prayer ever worked for anyone and if so what am I doing wrong? Am I praying to the wrong God? I mean what is it?
Serious and relevant responses only!!![/quote]
I too was raised to thank God and the like except I was raised a JDubya. I stopped when I realized that if I didn’t take charge and move mountains ain’t shit was going to get done. When shit was so fucked up that no matter how hard I prayed and hope nothing ever got better. Prayer works because it offers people hope that there is some heavenly being up there that cares and will help them get out of the muck they might be in. It only works in those that believe. My two centavos
It is impossible to quantify any effect of prayer, and these “studies” are useless, because in order to do so, you would have to assume that every prayer offered should be answered in the affirmative. That would be a dumb assumption, because it presumes the validity of every request.
It can’t be evaluated empirically.
The true purpose of prayer is to transform your inner life not be rewarded by external worldly success. Expecting god to answer your prayers like a genie in the bottle is a grotesque absurdity. That is the devils job and he is by nature a fickle servant at best.
Prayer is a well spring and fortress of inner strength. It is a place within where one has the opportunity by way of thought and emotion and will to emulate the most sublime ideals and beliefs that that person holds true as a reflection of God and Providence.
Imagine a pure spring of clean waters in the midst of a parched desert from which animals and plants are nourished and strengthened. Or imagine the image of the Sun that gives incredible quantities of light and warmth and energy to the entire world and all human beings.
You can only give something if you first possess that thing. Prayer is your opportunity to be like that spring and that sun and radiate purity and life giving radiance from within you. This allows you to harmonize with and resemble, all be it to a smaller scale, the superior forces that order creation, the very Fountainhead itself.
Prayer is a spiritual commodity that bestows inner happiness joy and an indomitable sense of harmony despite the external maelstrom of the outside world. Inner happiness and harmony are not necessarily the ideal qualities needed for succeeding in an external world that values wisdom power and vanity above simplicity purity and joy.
Now if you want external worldly success you are much better off turning your meditations toward acquiring science engineering and perhaps business and banking skills or perfecting your instincts towards physical strength piracy warfare and destruction. These are all in high demand for dealing with external conditions.
Balancing and harmonizing all the forces of the internal and external life is a mark of mastery and a sincere being. Prayer is only one aspect of the higher human life.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
It is impossible to quantify any effect of prayer, and these “studies” are useless, because in order to do so, you would have to assume that every prayer offered should be answered in the affirmative. That would be a dumb assumption, because it presumes the validity of every request.
It can’t be evaluated empirically.[/quote]
Mayo Clin Proc. 2001 Dec;76(12):1192-8.Links
Comment in:
Mayo Clin Proc. 2001 Dec;76(12):1189-91.
Mayo Clin Proc. 2002 Jun;77(6):600.
Mayo Clin Proc. 2002 Jun;77(6):600; author reply 600-1.
Intercessory prayer and cardiovascular disease progression in a coronary care unit population: a randomized controlled trial.
Aviles JM, Whelan SE, Hernke DA, Williams BA, Kenny KE, O’Fallon WM, Kopecky SL.
Mayo Physician Alliance for Clinical Trials Coordinating Center, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn. 55902, USA.
OBJECTIVE: To determine the effect of intercessory prayer, a widely practiced complementary therapy, on cardiovascular disease progression after hospital discharge. PATIENTS AND METHODS: In this randomized controlled trial conducted between 1997 and 1999, a total of 799 coronary care unit patients were randomized at hospital discharge to the intercessory prayer group or to the control group. Intercessory prayer, ie, prayer by 1 or more persons on behalf of another, was administered at least once a week for 26 weeks by 5 intercessors per patient. The primary end point after 26 weeks was any of the following: death, cardiac arrest, rehospitalization for cardiovascular disease, coronary revascularization, or an emergency department visit for cardiovascular disease. Patients were divided into a high-risk group based on the presence of any of 5 risk factors (age = or >70 years, diabetes mellitus, prior myocardial infarction, cerebrovascular disease, or peripheral vascular disease) or a low-risk group (absence of risk factors) for subsequent primary events. RESULTS: At 26 weeks, a primary end point had occurred in 25.6% of the intercessory prayer group and 29.3% of the control group (odds ratio [OR], 0.83 [95% confidence interval (CI), 0.60-1.14]; P=.25). Among high-risk patients, 31.0% in the prayer group vs 33.3% in the control group (OR, 0.90 [95% CI, 0.60-1.34]; P=.60) experienced a primary end point. Among low-risk patients, a primary end point occurred in 17.0% in the prayer group vs 24.1% in the control group (OR, 0.65 [95% CI, 0.20-1.36]; P=.12). CONCLUSIONS: As delivered in this study, intercessory prayer had no significant effect on medical outcomes after hospitalization in a coronary care unit.
[quote]FrankNStang wrote:
As a Christian who has been in some fairly bad times, many self-inflicted, my experience with prayer has been that God answers prayers with OPPORTUNITIES. God doesn’t just miracle your butt into a job, or miracle your marraige back on track or miracle your kid to wake up with his head removed from his ass.
God has answered me with an opportunity to talk with my wife, a way to connect with my son, an opportunity for education to get a better job.
Just my experience. BTW, for a good faith builder, look at organic chemistry and molecular biology. That could not have happened randomly in a tidal pool by chance. That stuff was designed by intelligence.[/quote]
I havent seen any opportunity, I go to school and all, but its like im doing it all myself and all alone.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
It is impossible to quantify any effect of prayer, and these “studies” are useless, because in order to do so, you would have to assume that every prayer offered should be answered in the affirmative. That would be a dumb assumption, because it presumes the validity of every request.
It can’t be evaluated empirically.[/quote]
You wouldn’t have to assume that every prayer would be answered. You would only have to assume that prayers are answered at a rate greater than would be expected by chance alone.
Unfortunately, the scientific studies have shown that prayers are not answered at a rate greater than you would expect from chance alone. Whether people pray over you or not makes literally no difference in the outcome.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
why are people who do not believe in God (and thus the power of prayer) bother replying on a thread seeking information about a practice they do not even partake in?
Isn’t that like asking Push to enumerate the merits of evolution?[/quote]
If you look at the title of the thread, it is:
I assume the OP was looking for honest opinions from people on both sides of the aisle.
[quote]Heliotrope wrote:
Prayer is a spiritual commodity that bestows inner happiness joy and an indomitable sense of harmony despite the external maelstrom of the outside world. Inner happiness and harmony are not necessarily the ideal qualities needed for succeeding in an external world that values wisdom power and vanity above simplicity purity and joy.
[/quote]
Fair enough, but you can achieve the same goals through meditation without needing to pretend like you are conversing with a supernatural being.
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
It is impossible to quantify any effect of prayer, and these “studies” are useless, because in order to do so, you would have to assume that every prayer offered should be answered in the affirmative. That would be a dumb assumption, because it presumes the validity of every request.
It can’t be evaluated empirically.
Mayo Clin Proc. 2001 Dec;76(12):1192-8.Links
Comment in:
Mayo Clin Proc. 2001 Dec;76(12):1189-91.
Mayo Clin Proc. 2002 Jun;77(6):600.
Mayo Clin Proc. 2002 Jun;77(6):600; author reply 600-1.
Intercessory prayer and cardiovascular disease progression in a coronary care unit population: a randomized controlled trial.
Aviles JM, Whelan SE, Hernke DA, Williams BA, Kenny KE, O’Fallon WM, Kopecky SL.
Mayo Physician Alliance for Clinical Trials Coordinating Center, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn. 55902, USA.
OBJECTIVE: To determine the effect of intercessory prayer, a widely practiced complementary therapy, on cardiovascular disease progression after hospital discharge. PATIENTS AND METHODS: In this randomized controlled trial conducted between 1997 and 1999, a total of 799 coronary care unit patients were randomized at hospital discharge to the intercessory prayer group or to the control group. Intercessory prayer, ie, prayer by 1 or more persons on behalf of another, was administered at least once a week for 26 weeks by 5 intercessors per patient. The primary end point after 26 weeks was any of the following: death, cardiac arrest, rehospitalization for cardiovascular disease, coronary revascularization, or an emergency department visit for cardiovascular disease. Patients were divided into a high-risk group based on the presence of any of 5 risk factors (age = or >70 years, diabetes mellitus, prior myocardial infarction, cerebrovascular disease, or peripheral vascular disease) or a low-risk group (absence of risk factors) for subsequent primary events. RESULTS: At 26 weeks, a primary end point had occurred in 25.6% of the intercessory prayer group and 29.3% of the control group (odds ratio [OR], 0.83 [95% confidence interval (CI), 0.60-1.14]; P=.25). Among high-risk patients, 31.0% in the prayer group vs 33.3% in the control group (OR, 0.90 [95% CI, 0.60-1.34]; P=.60) experienced a primary end point. Among low-risk patients, a primary end point occurred in 17.0% in the prayer group vs 24.1% in the control group (OR, 0.65 [95% CI, 0.20-1.36]; P=.12). CONCLUSIONS: As delivered in this study, intercessory prayer had no significant effect on medical outcomes after hospitalization in a coronary care unit.[/quote]
I really hope this idiotic study was not paid for by tax dollars. You cannot scientifically analize the effects of prayer, period.
It’s like trying to scientifically determine if you should bake a cake, or make cup cakes.
It is not the stuff of science and hence cannot be analyzed scientifically. You can try, but you will fail, every time.
[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
I don’t pray for measurable effects. Measurable effects are not important.
If it’s not measurable, why are you wasting your breath on it? What good is prayer if it has no noticeable effects?[/quote]
Noticeable and measurable are two different things, first. Second, science is irrelevant to prayer. Not everything belongs to science. Can you measure, inspiration? How about premonition? How about joy?
If you cannot measure those things how can you measure prayer. It has nothing to do with science, but don’t let that get in the way of wasting your time with it.
Of course prayer works.
You’re just doing it wrong.
When I was a kid, there was this nice bicycle I wanted. So, as kids are wont to do, I prayed each night to God to give me that bicycle.
Days, weeks, months went by and still no bicycle.
Then, one day, Enlightenment hit me like a Mack Truck.
The next day, I went and stole the bicycle. That night, I prayed to God for forgiveness, which was immediately granted.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Of course prayer works.
You’re just doing it wrong.
When I was a kid, there was this nice bicycle I wanted. So, as kids are wont to do, I prayed each night to God to give me that bicycle.
Days, weeks, months went by and still no bicycle.
Then, one day, Enlightenment hit me like a Mack Truck.
The next day, I went and stole the bicycle. That night, I prayed to God for forgiveness, which was immediately granted.
[/quote]
See…prayer does work, even for atheists!
I can say that in my life prayer has given me many opportunities I am certain I would not have had if I had not prayed.