T Nation

Does Prayer Work II

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Billions of years ago a dark substance began to evolve from nothing.

Wrong already.[/quote]

Did you even read the whole thing?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Billions of years ago a dark substance began to evolve from nothing.

Wrong already.

Did you even read the whole thing?[/quote]

I didn’t have to, if you think what you wrote in the first sentence, you clearly know nothing of the big bang theory. Wikipedia is there for you, use it.

[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:
Since these people tend to be quite vocal on public policy issues, their irrational beliefs do affect national policy.[/quote]

I agree. When people pretend fairy tales are reality, their world view unavoidably filters their political perspectives, and informs the civil laws enforcing those perspectives.

On the other hand, fairy tales can provide comfort to people. If you believe that you are going to see your loved ones again after they die, for example, that is a pretty significant advantage, irrespective of whether or not it is actually true.

Also, fairy tales can help ensure a level of social morality. When people believe they will be blessed or punished by a supernatural being for their behavior, they are more likely to live moral lives. It is more mature to live a moral life for its own sake, without the need for artificial carrots and sticks, but not everyone is there yet and some never will be.

I’m torn. I think religion has both advantages and disadvantages. Bottom line is that I encourage people to believe whatever makes them happy, as long as their beliefs don’t unnecessarily impinge on the happiness of others.

As Terry Goodkind puts it in Wizard’s First Rule, people believe what they want to be true or what they fear to be true, rather than what really is true.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Again, prayer is about conversation and having a relationship with God. You ask for things and if God decides that it is good, then he grants it. But I can assume that if he always says yes then there is no relationship and he turns into a magic genie.[/quote]

That’s what you’re not getting. If your god decides that something is good and grants it, this is an effect beyond what would be expected by chance alone. It would happen more often as a result of prayer than if nobody prayed at all. Unfortunately, that isn’t how things actually work. The same things happen regardless of whether or not people pray, so prayer has ZERO effect.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Imagine this scenario…[/quote]

Red herring. Your scenario assumes that something was created out of nothing. Further, it assumes that the universe is completely random, rather than being driven by universal laws.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Billions of years ago a dark substance began to evolve from nothing.

Wrong already.

Did you even read the whole thing?

I didn’t have to, if you think what you wrote in the first sentence, you clearly know nothing of the big bang theory. Wikipedia is there for you, use it.[/quote]

Sorry I wasn’t talking about the big bang theory. So, not sure what you are trying to say.

[quote]forlife wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Again, prayer is about conversation and having a relationship with God. You ask for things and if God decides that it is good, then he grants it. But I can assume that if he always says yes then there is no relationship and he turns into a magic genie.

That’s what you’re not getting. If your god decides that something is good and grants it, this is an effect beyond what would be expected by chance alone. It would happen more often as a result of prayer than if nobody prayed at all. Unfortunately, that isn’t how things actually work. The same things happen regardless of whether or not people pray, so prayer has ZERO effect.[/quote]

Because you track everything that happens in the world, and you have accurate statistics on how often they occur and the probability they will happen. You must busy.

[quote]forlife wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Imagine this scenario…

Red herring. Your scenario assumes that something was created out of nothing. Further, it assumes that the universe is completely random, rather than being driven by universal laws.[/quote]

You talk about universal laws, what about Murphy’s law of motion?

ALL prayers are answered. Not all prayers are answered the way you want and on your time schedule. People often get frustrated because they pray for something they want and want it to happen immediately. It doesn’t always happen that way, but sometimes you get things you need before you even realize you should ask for it. Frustrated people claim there is no God or that God doesn’t care. Ultimately, you can’t prove either you just have to be faithful in what you believe. I think most people have turned away from God becaue they are angry over a situation in which they felt let down which is truly unfortunate.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Sorry I wasn’t talking about the big bang theory. So, not sure what you are trying to say.[/quote]

Not sure you know what you’re trying to say.

You talk of something coming from nothing, that’s not what “evolutionists” think at all. At least the ones with an IQ over 4.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Sorry I wasn’t talking about the big bang theory. So, not sure what you are trying to say.

Not sure you know what you’re trying to say.

You talk of something coming from nothing, that’s not what “evolutionists” think at all. At least the ones with an IQ over 4.[/quote]

I still think you should actually read what I posted instead of thinking I am talking about evolutionist. Because it has nothing to do with the Universe.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I still think you should actually read what I posted instead of thinking I am talking about evolutionist. Because it has nothing to do with the Universe.[/quote]

You wrote:

[i]"Billions of years ago a dark substance began to evolve from nothing. It came out of nowhere. Then there was a big bang. We don’t know what caused the bang or why, but it happened.

yet for some reason people are content to believe that it just came out of nowhere - that something came from nothing.

Science told me."[/i]

No one should be claiming it came from NOTHING retard. We don’t know the state the universe existed in prior to the formation of the current universe, and we don’t pretend to either.

Fuck me, you can’t possibly be his dumb.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Billions of years ago a dark substance began to evolve from nothing.

Wrong already.

Did you even read the whole thing?[/quote]

Reading a misleading paragraph written by someone who supposedly doesn’t have the capability of understanding matter or everything around them subjective to logic will only make me stoop down to your level.

And of course your level is what I regard the lowest; someone who BLINDLY believes a book written over 2000 years ago by some Jews who made up a story while sitting around in a hippy circle passing the blunt to the left.

I do want to ask you something. While you were taught, spoonfed and brainwashed with all the scripture and abstract stories that remotely pertains to rational thinking; did you ever stop to question it?

Anyone with an ability to read or write also has the capacity to question. If you have never questioned anything that ascertains to Christianity; may your GOD help you.

[quote]
I do want to ask you something. While you were taught, spoonfed and brainwashed with all the scripture and abstract stories that remotely pertains to rational thinking; did you ever stop to question it?

Anyone with an ability to read or write also has the capacity to question. If you have never questioned anything that ascertains to Christianity; may your GOD help you.[/quote]

Well, I certainly have questioned things and lived a very irreligious life in the past. I was raised to believe but began to question and not believe when I was about 19. Just as I posted I was one of those frustrated by not having my prayers answered to my desire and on my time. Here’s what I found though. Nobody who lives in accordance with the word of God faces as many struggles as those who don’t. Of course nobody can live a perfect sin free life, but there is a reason for what the Bible teaches. I always challenge anyone to follow those teachings and tell me honestly that their life has changed for the worse.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Because you track everything that happens in the world, and you have accurate statistics on how often they occur and the probability they will happen. You must busy.[/quote]

You don’t have to track everything in the world, any more than you have to track every chemical reaction in order to note a reliable chemical effect in the lab.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
You talk about universal laws, what about Murphy’s law of motion?[/quote]

How is the idea of a universe or series of universes always existing contradicted by Murphy’s law of motion?

[quote]BBriere wrote:
ALL prayers are answered. Not all prayers are answered the way you want and on your time schedule.[/quote]

If the outcome is the same regardless of whether or not you pray, there is nobody up there answering your prayer. If the outcome is different as a result of prayer, this is measurable and can be documented. It doesn’t require every prayer to be answered, only a demonstration that the outcomes are different when you pray than when you don’t pray.

I wasn’t angry at “god” when I turned away from religion, in fact I continue to have fond memories and appreciate many of my experiences as a believer. However, integrity required me to admit that just wanting something to be true didn’t automatically make it true. Without actual evidence, I can’t honestly say that I believe something to be real.

[quote]BBriere wrote:
Nobody who lives in accordance with the word of God faces as many struggles as those who don’t. [/quote]

Read Job much?

[quote]clip11 wrote:
I made a previous post expressing my extrme doubt on prayer or in a God. I now have to take that back. Back in March I applied for unemployment and was denied. I appealed and after 2 months or more of prayer and waiting, I got approved for my unemployment enefits which means they owe me over $3000 in back pay. I know their may be a logical explanation, but I attribute this to prayer to my God. [/quote]

Glad you found peace…
Answers don’t always come they way we want or when, but they are always the right answers.

As for the rest of the debate, I am not getting sucked in this time, I just don’t have the time. All I needed to say was said last time in nauseating detail. By the looks of it, the arguments are just repeating anyway. My previous answers are my current answers.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
I still think you should actually read what I posted instead of thinking I am talking about evolutionist. Because it has nothing to do with the Universe.

You wrote:

[i]"Billions of years ago a dark substance began to evolve from nothing. It came out of nowhere. Then there was a big bang. We don’t know what caused the bang or why, but it happened.

yet for some reason people are content to believe that it just came out of nowhere - that something came from nothing.

Science told me."[/i]

No one should be claiming it came from NOTHING retard. We don’t know the state the universe existed in prior to the formation of the current universe, and we don’t pretend to either.

Fuck me, you can’t possibly be his dumb.[/quote]

Lol, I am not. My statement above is not about the Universe, it’s about what people believe just because someone says it. Just read the whole thing and get a chuckle out of it.