Hello, everyone. I am new member, who just joined today’s forum. My goals have been to increase both muscle mass and strength. 8 months ago, was when I started seriously lifting weights on a consistent basis. For the first 3 months, I did various compounds movements within the 8-20 rep range. After the 3rd month I decided to switch to doing Starting Strength in order to put a lot more emphasis on building overall strength, while still trying to continue building more raw muscle mass.
Having been in SS for about 5 months, I’ve been making a lot of gains on the program so far. However, my gains have been slowing down to we’re I am only able to increase each of my lifts by about 1 lbs. I am 5’11" and five months ago before I started the program was 150 lbs and now I am 160 lbs. Given my height and weight along with still being able to my ab muscles, I know that I am only at about 9-10% bodyfat and Rippetoe says that I should eventually be at about 19-20% bodyfat towards the end of the program.
Though here is my question. If it’s true that the independent act of eating a surplus of calories leads to an increase in muscle/strength, then isn’t the ideal amount of calories to eat while strength training an unlimited amount?
For example, everything equal, one person adds 20lbs of bf, the other adds 10lbs of bf. The one who added 20lbs will be stronger. And the pattern continues; someone who adds 30lbs of bf will be stronger than the one who added 20lbs, etc. Is this true? Ive also, heard alot of powerlifters say that putting on more weight, even if all of the weight you gain was fat, does make you significantly stronger because the thicker your body is, greater leverage you have for lifting heavier weights.
However, I’ve looked at a video from JuggernautFitnessTV and he says that just adding pounds of fat will only increase your lifting strength slightly.
So, now I am confused and not sure if I should gaining more weight. I mean what if I gained about 10lbs. more, but then all of that added weight gain became useless fat that did very little to nothing to improve my strength in the bench, squat, OH press, deadlift, etc.? Any help from highly experienced weightlifters would be greatly appreciated.
You are 5’11" and 160, you should definitely try to gain some weight. You don’t want to get fat, and I personally think the upper end should be closer to 15% than 20%, but the point is that it is much easier to grow muscle in a surplus. For me personally I am willing to add close to a pound of fat if it means I add 2 pounds of muscle.
If you are gaining 4 lbs of fat for every 2 lbs of muscle, then that is not good. The fat itself doesn’t make you stronger. Sometimes it can change things to make you lift weight better due to leverages though.
You went from 150 to 160 in 5 months of SS. As Rippetoe would say, " YNTFP (You’re Not Doing The F*****g Program".
Apparent by your pathetic weight gain, you were NOT eating enough. Period. You should be at least 200 lbs.
As for bodyFAT increasing strength? No. Fat does not increase strength. It is an energy store.
Increasing in overall weight will ALSO allow for adding more muscle, IF YOU ARE LIFTING HEAVY WEIGHTS. Some ancillary fat gain often happens. Especially for skinny people, they often need to eat in excess of calories since their bodies already demonstrate an unwillingness to hold onto extra calories.
I notice you mention your abs? There’s another clue that you aren’t eating enough.
As Chris Colucci is fond of asking around here: What exactly did you eat yesterday?
[quote]Deva wrote:
Having been in SS for about 5 months, I’ve been making a lot of gains on the program so far.[/quote]
What’s your current squat, deadlift, bench, overhead press, and clean? And what were those numbers 5 months ago?
This was a typo, right?
I don’t know what you read and misinterpreted, but I’m positive that he did not say that. He never said you “should” be 20% bodyfat when you “finish” the program.
False premise. A surplus of calories doesn’t, by itself, increase strength.
Few people should be eating literally “an unlimited amount.” But light, lean guys trying to build muscle do often have to eat much more than they think, which might appear like an unlimited amount.
Gaining weight to increase leverage (or reduce ROM) can help on some lifts, but “eating your way to strength” usually comes after you’ve built a decent strength base and fine-tuned programming and refined technique. Even without knowing your current lifting stats, I’m sure “strengthening your way to strength” will tide you over just fine for a while.
What is your specific long-term goal?
EDIT:[quote]SevenDragons wrote:
As Chris Colucci is fond of asking around here: What exactly did you eat yesterday?[/quote]
Ha, kinda yeah. Pretty sure we can make an educated guess though. Followed Starting Strength for five months, gained just 10 pounds, and still ended up around 10% bodyfat, I’m guessing dude went light on daily calories and/or tried to low-carb it.
No, as of lately, I’ve really only been able to gain about 1 lbs. on each of my lifts sometimes per workout and sometimes per week. Also, yes, I have already deloaded three times on each of the exercises, except for power cleans which has only been one time so far and deadlifts which has so far been twice.
[quote]
I don’t know what you read and misinterpreted, but I’m positive that he did not say that. He never said you “should” be 20% bodyfat when you “finish” the program. [/quote]
Well, here’s a quote from the nutrition and bodyweight section of the SS book, “After the frist three or four months, a change will be necessary for most guys who started off skinny. If you ahve done the program correctly, you will ahve gained quite a bit of weight, about 60% of it being lean body mass (LBM)–muscle, tendon, and bone. This means that your bodyfat may have gone from 10% to 18-19%. This is fine; it was necessary to produce the LBM increase.” I know that technically he said “may…”, but I believe in this context he expects skinny guys to be about 18-19% bodyfat after three to four months.
[quote]
False premise. A surplus of calories doesn’t, by itself, increase strength. [/quote]
Well, okay, yeah technically the calories by itself doesn’t lead to an increase in strength. I basically was trying to ask whether or not an increase in bodyfat from eating more food is directly proportional to an increase in overall strength.
[quote]
Few people should be eating literally “an unlimited amount.” But light, lean guys trying to build muscle do often have to eat much more than they think, which might appear like an unlimited amount. [/quote]
I find that it’s been very difficult to continue making a calories surplus without the use of GOMAD, supplements, junk food, and cooking certain foods.
[quote]
Gaining weight to increase leverage (or reduce ROM) can help on some lifts, but “eating your way to strength” usually comes after you’ve built a decent strength base and fine-tuned programming and refined technique. Even without knowing your current lifting stats, I’m sure “strengthening your way to strength” will tide you over just fine for a while. [/quote]
So, would gaining 10 lbs. of just fat significantly increase my strength?
[quote]
What is your specific long-term goal? [/quote]
I said that my goal currently is to gain more muscle mass and overall strength. However, my goals sometime in the future will probably change to focusing more on my overall endurance.
Oh, you did? So then we are dealing with a comprehension problem?
Nowhere in there does MR suggest that body fat is strength. That fat is a benefit. In fact, it’s a necessary SIDE EFFECT of eating enough to create an anabolic environment for muscle growth. Particularly in little skinny guys, like yourself.
Oh, you did? So then we are dealing with a comprehension problem?
Nowhere in there does MR suggest that body fat is strength. That fat is a benefit. In fact, it’s a necessary SIDE EFFECT of eating enough to create an anabolic environment for muscle growth. Particularly in little skinny guys, like yourself.
You should worry about hearing but not listening.[/quote]
He has said in his book that skinny guys should put on about 40 lbs. of weight within three to four months. It is not possible for any grown man to gain more than 5-7lbs. of real dry muscle in only 3 to 4 months, regardless of how flawless both his training and nutritional regimen are and not matter how genetically gifted he is for building muscle. Therefore, Rippetoe is saying that a skinny guy should ultimately gained about 33-35 lbs. of fat after 3 to 4 months of doing the program.
I’ll just have to wait to see what someone like Chris has to say about all of this.
[quote]Deva wrote:
He has said in his book that skinny guys should put on about 40 lbs. of weight within three to four months. It is not possible for any grown man to gain more than 5-7lbs. of real dry muscle in only 3 to 4 months, regardless of how flawless both his training and nutritional regimen are and not matter how genetically gifted he is for building muscle. Therefore, Rippetoe is saying that a skinny guy should ultimately gained about 33-35 lbs. of fat after 3 to 4 months of doing the program.
[/quote]
Lean mass is more than just “real, dry muscle”. It literally just means anything that isn’t fat.
If you took the hypothetical 120lb, 6ft+ guy that Rippetoe essentially refers to when he says skinny, then it is certainly possible for that individual to put on 40lb with most of that being lean mass within a couple of months.
[quote]Deva wrote:
Chris, what are your responses to my latest reply to you?[/quote]
I try not to go on the computer during the weekend, sorry if it seemed like I was snubbing you, or stumped, or whatever.
How in the sweet hell do you add one pound to a lift and still think you’re following the Starting Strength program? I mean, I understand micro-loading, but that really shows a misunderstanding of some basic principles of the program. That aside, I will say your strength progress so far is much better than I expected.
Deloading three times over the course of five months is overkill and highlights the fact that you were not recovering enough to maintain progress. Proper daily calories would’ve almost-certainly prevented the “need” for the deloads.
I’m guessing that’s the 3rd edition? I’ve only read the 2nd edition, plus tons of Rippetoe articles (not for nothing, but I did this site’s first interview with Rip in '08). One recurring claim regarding bodyweight gains is that Rip generally says results are roughly 60% LBM and 40% bodyfat when the plan is followed. This obviously doesn’t jive with your misinterpretation that Rip says people should gain 35 pounds of bodyfat in 4 months.
In fact, in the 2nd edition, he very plainly states: “What is unusual is finding a genetically gifted athlete that will actually do the program - all of it. [emphasis his] It is far more common to see 20 lb. increases in bodyweight over a 4-month period, with only a very few diligent ones doing much better.” This statement is made after giving an example of “a broad-shouldered, motivated kid 5’10” weight 140 lbs. gaining as much as 60 lbs. in a year…" These statements seem much more reasonable and, really, common sensical, compared to thinking a coach would advocate anyone gain 35 pounds of bodyfat in 4 months’ time.
No. Gaining bodyfat without gaining strength happens all too often. It’s called “a failed bulk.” Search this site for “the story of Artem.” Long story short: dude gained 100 pounds of bodyweight in a year, most of it fat. By the end, he still struggled to squat BW and couldn’t overhead press half-BW.
Um… then do GOMAD, have a chicken parm hero once in a while, and cook “certain foods” (whatever that means). Just get your calories in. I don’t see how being a fussy eater equates to needing “an unlimited amount of calories.”
And, again, what exactly did you eat yesterday?
I believe gaining 10-20 pounds of bodyweight would help your lifts, yes. I’d bet a shot of bourbon that Rippetoe would agree. But it’s not because of added bodyfat. It’s because the ample calories and nutrients would allow maximal recovery and performance.
Those aren’t goals, they’re vague/general ideas. Goals would be, ‘Weigh 180, squat 315x5, and bench 225x5 by April 1, and run 2 miles in 13 minutes by June 1.’
Didnt help me much. At your level im sure some extra BW would help you. For me personally I am seeing pretty much seeing the same rate of progress at 230 as I was at 215 but I am also 5’6" on a good day.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
I kind of feel like this is an alternate account of bull_scientist. The questions and phrasing are awfully reminiscent of this very recent thread:
I read a really interesting article that stated overweight people have much lower incidences of osteoporosis precisely because their bones have to support their weight. You are more likely to die of stroke or heart attack, but at least you will have healthy bones! I suppose the latter is irrelevant if you are 85.
I try not to go on the computer during the weekend, sorry if it seemed like I was snubbing you, or stumped, or whatever. [/quote]
That’s alright. I didn’t know that you usually don’t go on the forum during the weekends.
[quote]
How in the sweet hell do you add one pound to a lift and still think you’re following the Starting Strength program? I mean, I understand micro-loading, but that really shows a misunderstanding of some basic principles of the program. That aside, I will say your strength progress so far is much better than I expected. [/quote]
You mean, I am missing the basic principles of recovery? Otherwise, I have been trying to follow the program to the T.
[quote]
Deloading three times over the course of five months is overkill and highlights the fact that you were not recovering enough to maintain progress. Proper daily calories would’ve almost-certainly prevented the “need” for the deloads. [/quote]
[quote]
I’m guessing that’s the 3rd edition? I’ve only read the 2nd edition, plus tons of Rippetoe articles (not for nothing, but I did this site’s first interview with Rip in '08). One recurring claim regarding bodyweight gains is that Rip generally says results are roughly 60% LBM and 40% bodyfat when the plan is followed. This obviously doesn’t jive with your misinterpretation that Rip says people should gain 35 pounds of bodyfat in 4 months.
In fact, in the 2nd edition, he very plainly states: “What is unusual is finding a genetically gifted athlete that will actually do the program - all of it. [emphasis his] It is far more common to see 20 lb. increases in bodyweight over a 4-month period, with only a very few diligent ones doing much better.” This statement is made after giving an example of “a broad-shouldered, motivated kid 5’10” weight 140 lbs. gaining as much as 60 lbs. in a year…" These statements seem much more reasonable and, really, common sensical, compared to thinking a coach would advocate anyone gain 35 pounds of bodyfat in 4 months’ time. [/quote]
Well, you know what I don’t understand is that in the SS book, before Rippetoe said that skinny guys should have gained roughly 60% LBM and 40% bodyfat in about 3 months, he said that skinny guys should have gained 40 lbs. in those 3 months. Given those above premises he made, then 60% of 40 lbs. being LBM would mean that about 24 lbs. out of 40 lbs. gained would be gains in LBM. Therefore, Rippetoe ultimately seems to be implying that a skinny guy should have gained about 24 lbs. of muscle within three months. Yet, that it’s impossible for anyone to do even if one were to follow the program and their nutritional regimen to the T, especially given the fact that the SS program is not even a bodybuilding program.
[quote]
No. Gaining bodyfat without gaining strength happens all too often. It’s called “a failed bulk.” Search this site for “the story of Artem.” Long story short: dude gained 100 pounds of bodyweight in a year, most of it fat. By the end, he still struggled to squat BW and couldn’t overhead press half-BW. [/quote]
I skimmed through it, and one of Artem’s main problem was that he didn’t really follow a good weight training program consistently. Though, I think that the point that you were trying make is that while it’s beneficial for a skinny beginner to put on a lot of weight when working on gaining muscle mass and strength, at a certain point adding more weight will become counterproductive. Otherwise, anything more than about 40-50 lbs. in a year will mean that you are adding excess useless fat.
I don’t want to eat a lot foods and/or drink liquids that have a considerable amount of cholesteroI, saturated fat, refined sugars, etc. Also, I haven’t tried the chicken parm hero, but I’ll look into that.
And, again, what exactly did you eat yesterday?
[quote]
I believe gaining 10-20 pounds of bodyweight would help your lifts, yes. I’d bet a shot of bourbon that Rippetoe would agree. But it’s not because of added bodyfat. It’s because the ample calories and nutrients would allow maximal recovery and performance. [/quote]
Oh, So gaining 10-20 lbs. of bodyweight increases your overall strength by increasing the amount of stored energy and macronutrients your body is able to use to recover your nervous system and to build more muscle tissue for the following workouts?
[quote]
Those aren’t goals, they’re vague/general ideas. Goals would be, ‘Weigh 180, squat 315x5, and bench 225x5 by April 1, and run 2 miles in 13 minutes by June 1.’[/quote]
Well, then I supposed my specific goals would be to increase my squat to 300 lbs. x 5, deadlift 375 lbs., bench press 210 lbs. x 5, OH press 135 lbs. x 5, power clean 135 lbs. x 5 all within about 3 months from now.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
I kind of feel like this is an alternate account of bull_scientist. The questions and phrasing are awfully reminiscent of this very recent thread:
Specifically the “adding 40 pounds” and “dry muscle” Rippetoe quotes.[/quote]
Wow that’s one hell of a thread lol.
Anyway, Csulli got it right:
And lol at “20lbs of dry muscle a year”!!! That’s like 60-80lbs of lbm![/quote]
I can gain and lose fat fairly quickly and frequently do. I’ve lifted in the 198s and 242s in the same year without much water manipulation. My observation is I can bench and squat way more when I’m fat than lean; deadlift not so much variation. And I agree with Csulli, the reasons are complicated and there’s more to it than just leverages. And in my 40’s I don’t think I’m really adding or losing much muscle from year to year.
