Does Hypertrophy Come Faster When You Have a Strength Foundation?

Can’t forget how everyone talked about Arnold doing weightlifting before bodybuilding and winning that stone lifting competition too, haha.

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The most ironic thing is the first thing powerlifters who follow block periodisation do is a hypertrophy phase!

I think sometimes we get too caught up in X rep range (say 1-5) being ‘strength’ and anything above that being something else.

Now obviously, a max effort single or triple might be strength in a more pure form, but even still it’s clear that somebody progressing from a 60kg ohp for 10 all out reps to a 70kg ohp for 10 all out reps has gotten stronger…its just strength in a different range.

So, for the sake of debate, why are low reps needed at all to get stronger?

*edit - I’m not talking about the optimal range to build strength. Obviously if your goals are strength based, low reps by and large probably make more sense. But if size is your goal, why the need to make your bones in the low rep compounds alone? Surely you can you learn how to DL or row with good form in higher rep ranges?

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They are needed to get stronger so much as they are needed to practice the skill of lifting maximal poundages. This is how intensification phases tend to work. During accumulation, intensity is low to accommodate higher volume. During intensification, you drop the volume so you can spend more time in the higher intensities and perfecting the necessary skills when lifting at that range.

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Fair enough. I say this as a guy who built a lifting foundation on fairly low reps, by the way (I read all the ‘compounds yay, iso nay’ stuff). I just never really paid any attention to the science/logic behind all of this lifting until pretty recently

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I’ve seen a lot of your posts and I can tell you know what you’re talking about. What in your experience/opinion is the ideal frequency, in general, for bodybuilding specific goals for someone who trains natural (personally, I think steroids should be legal, but I’m not getting paid for my athletics and don’t have the money for them, so it’s not on the horizon). thanks.

Once every five to seven days.

Thank you!

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Mon: biceptz
Tues: triceptz
Wed: bench
Thurs: trapz
Fri: carfz

How’d I do coach?

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Looks great! :joy:

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In his book Total Recall, he claims to have started bodybuilding first. From what I gather, since he does not go into much details, he kinda “muscled up” and pushed pressed his cleans during his first weightlifting competition.

This is the main problem I have with the logic of these 5x5 programs. I get it if all these low reps are done with weights which do not bring you near technical failure, but if you are going to add 5lbs per session, the logic does not stand once the weights get challenging after 2-3 weeks and then you are constantly pushing to failure with increasing rest times(up to 15mins?!). Unless you are gaining bodyweight at a rapid rate, or you already have a sports base or have developed sufficient body awareness from training with a bodypart split, that’s not enough time to hone and maintain proper technique.

It should be the other way around. Do 531 with a template with a variety of exercises, then do Starting Strength when you want to specialize in the 3 lifts. Sooner or later, someone with common sense is going to figure this out and start screaming about it all over Internetland along with posting his affiliate links and a new free optimal program, but YOU READ IT HERE FIRST!

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If you’re really lucky, you will progress so slowly on 5/3/1 you never, ever even get to Starting Strength.

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Thanks. The outline in the article “tried and true bodybuilding template” fits what you’re saying (the four day is chest/biceps, back/abs, shoulder/triceps/abs, legs).

A lot of the high frequency advocates talk about protein synthesis only occurring 48-72 hours after a workout, therefore the high frequency is often suggested. If you’re training 4-5x per week and hitting each muscle group with the 5-7 day frequency, you’re still stimulating protein synthesis for the whole body even if today you just worked chest and biceps, correct?

Yes, they recommend this despite there being no evidence that their awesome upper-lower splits and full body programs aren’t providing double or triple the rate of results of guys using bro splits. (Again, upper-lower and full body programs do have a place and are actually necessary for some non-bodbuiding aims.)

Could it be, thinking with common sense, that maybe there’s more to muscle growth than protein synthesis?! I think so, but don’t know so. @Lonnie123 and I have spoken about this several times.

And like I said before, it appears some people, including myself, were just simply ignoring simple observation! That is, bro splits have produced the best results for bodybuilding for decades! But the geeks on the scene thought they could come up with something better and claimed that only genetic freaks on drugs can get results on such a plan when this is ridiculously false! My friends and I do not have the best genes to be found (though I do think my pal @The_Mighty_Stu has good genes for recovery or the ability to eat enough for a small village to fuel seven days a week of strength training), but we got great results from bro splits.

This is what many are ignoring or contradicting themselves with. They claim all or mostly what one needs is the big-bang exercises because this stimulates the most muscle mass, including the secondary movers (e.g., biceps with back work, triceps with shoulder and chest work), but insist one train the targeted muscle groups twice per week.

Granted if one does a bench press, there is, or there is intended to be, greater strain on the chest than shoulders or tri’s, but the trips are still working. So if one trains chest and biceps and then three days later trains shoulders and triceps with the best exercise choices, he is training chest, shoulders, and triceps twice per week with varying degrees of stimulation. Same goes if one does stiff-legged deadlifts on leg day and then three days later trains back, there is stimulation on the back and possibly the hamstrings and quads (bent over rows, deadlifts) twice per week or once every three or four days.

Anyway, despite our reasoning and my belaboring the issue, the proof is there: wiseasses pushing their agenda don’t look like bodybuilders and guys who look like them use body part splits.

I am actually sorry for this rant, but I get a little worked up on this topic. Peruse the bodybuilding forum and you’ll see various discussion on the matter we had last summer here.

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The studies and “scientific” side of bodybuilding have absolutely ruined me. I, for some reason, cannot get the concept of chasing numbers on the compound movements out of my head in terms of natural bodybuilding. Anectdotally, bro-splits are what bodybuilders have used time and time again to build their physiques and for some reason this new age of “evidenced-based” training has seemingly brainwashed, I’m sure not only me but others that in order to grow as a natural there must be more frequency, there must be constant strength progression in terms of weight on the bar, etc. Funny how attached a person can become to concepts and ideas and then see how hard it is to try and go against them. /end vent session @BrickHead

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Good post.

But obviously anyone should gun for increased weight and reps over time with whatever exercises they use. It’s just that constantly trying to improve weight in the big lifts isn’t the sole aim of a bodybuilder, and I see no reason why a bodybuilder should perform less than 5 reps a set.

And there comes a time in which ever-increasing strength makes one more susceptible to injuries. Hence we see why more experienced people use pre-exhaust, higher reps, and slower tempos. Who the heck wants their bodies feeling like shit after two decades of training?

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Good post.

Yes, those people were involved in Olympic lifting and powerlifting, but they are not the norm in the upper ranks of bodybuilding and we can also see quite a few powerlifters who looked quite asymmetrical and did not have an edge over bodybuilders who never participated in lifting sports. I realize that Ronnie was one of the freakiest, but really, for how long was he involved in powerlifting? If his involvement was lengthy, then I’m wrong.

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What’s your opinion of some programs involving high frequency squatting and deadlifting? I don’t see how these cannot be disastrous on the body.

Depends on how the volume and intensity are managed really. With intelligent programming you can get away with it, but most people push too hard and get hurt.

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Also, go look at the most vocal and obnoxious “gurus” obsessed with research and “evidence”. I can think of two of the most obnoxious who never had much to do with bodybuilding personally!