T Nation

Does Anybody Run Supra-Physiological T Levels Forever?


#1

Ok Guys,

In a nutshell, I have been running high T now on TRT for a little while now.

This is my protocol:

Day 1: Testosterone Cypionate a bit over1/2 ml twice a week (Cypionate Intramuscular buttocks shot)

Day 2: Arimidex 1/4 tablet (estrogen blockers)

Day 3: HCG 500 units (50U on the insulin syringe) (natural testosterone stimulation)(Subcutaneous injection in the belly)(Refrigerate)

Day 4: Testosterone Cypionate a bit over 1/2 ml (Cypionate Intramuscular buttocks shot) Arimidex 1/4 capsule(estrogen blockers)

Day 5: Arimidex 1/4 tablet (estrogen blockers)

Day 6: HCG 500 units (50U on the insulin syringe) (natural testosterone stimulation)(Subcutaneous injection in the belly)(Refrigerate)

Day 7: No Meds

Did labs recently: Total Testosterone was over 2,000 and Free T was more than double the highest normal range number. E2 was at 8 (which seems low but I wanted to have sex with everything so maybe that is good for me).

So my numbers were pretty high but I felt GREAT!!!! I started taking 2iu of Pharmacy issued Humatrope 6 days ago and stopped using the Androgel to calm my T numbers a little bit.

While levels are like this I feel like muscle is just building on me, I can lift weights at the gym that are my heaviest ever (I actually partially ruptured a tendon in my arm because my muscles grew so fast my tendons were not acclimated yet). That put me out of the gym for the last 10 days and I am still not totally recovered so be careful of that!

But I just felt ANIMAL, lol. A strong, sexual predator of total confidence, lol. But still myself (I am by nature a helpful and friendly person). If anything I was actually NICER and more patient than normal at these levels. No anger or rage at all. One thing though was I was not sleeping as good as when at a high range that was not quite that high.

I was thinking of either keeping my levels up there all the time or bringing them down during the week an back up in time for the weekend because I get so dang horny - (it drives my wife crazy during the week but she is ready for me on the weekends).

Does anyone consistently keep their T levels in this range? I feel so good there that I want to keep it like that for the rest of my life.

Anyone with experience and or knowledge in this matter please let me know what your thoughts are? I like real experience and theory but please just let us know which your post is based on?

Thanks for reading! C Hunter :slight_smile:


#2

You need to be doing the lab basics, watching E2, HTC and AST/ALT. HTC will limit how much T many can tolerate. If controlling E2, SHBG should decrease and FT may increase. SHBG seems to change slowly.

You have not yet tested HTC.
Cortisol: - what time of day was the lab work done. Should have been 8AM.

Testing LH/FSH while on TRT is in$ane, no need to ever do this again.

You may be in a honeymoon phase and sexuality may decrease over time and more T dose not necessarily restore that.

Some feel great and hyper-sexual with 100mg/week.

With 200mg T per week, 1/2mg anastrozole would be very inadequate in most cases. Prior threads seem to indicate that your are an anastrozole over-responder.

Reporting your dosing in ml's and 14ths of tablets is very lacking. Aways report in mg's and iu's.

You now have many thread and any posts that you now make are divorced from other details of your case. Bad practice.


#3

Running T at those doses is like running a permanent low dose steroid cycle. The short answer is that your likelihood of unwanted side effects is much higher and closer to that of a steroid user. Google dead wrestlers and you will have your answer.


#4

KSMan - good info but no idea what you are talking about when you say many posts with divorced details. I have multiple topics and am posting my personal situation in each to give background so I see no bad practice in doing that. Otherwise, I appreciate your input. The Test Cyp does is about 220mg per week in divided doses IM and the Anastrozole is 1/4 or 1MG tabs.

BLShaw, thank you also for your info.

Here were some recent labs. I had another done like 4-5 days later that showed the Total T over 2000 and E2 in the low 30's. But I must be super responsive to Anastrozole to have had E2 at 8 with Total T over 2000. On the second set of labs a week later the E2 was in the low 30's but I had reduced the Anastrozole to the 1/4 tabs.

Labs:

Chemistries 01
Glucose, Serum 87 mg/dL 65 - 99 01
Uric Acid, Serum 4.9 mg/dL 3.7 - 8.6 01
Please Note: 01
Therapeutic target for gout patients: <6.0
BUN 20 mg/dL 6 - 20 01
Creatinine, Serum 0.93 mg/dL 0.76 - 1.27 01
eGFR If NonAfricn Am 105 mL/min/1.73 >59
eGFR If Africn Am 121 mL/min/1.73 >59
BUN/Creatinine Ratio 22 High 8 - 19
Sodium, Serum 146 High mmol/L 134 - 144 01
Potassium, Serum 5.0 mmol/L 3.5 - 5.2 01
Chloride, Serum 101 mmol/L 97 - 108 01
Calcium, Serum 10.1 mg/dL 8.7 - 10.2 01
Phosphorus, Serum 4.1 mg/dL 2.5 - 4.5 01
Protein, Total, Serum 7.0 g/dL 6.0 - 8.5 01
Albumin, Serum 4.8 g/dL 3.5 - 5.5 01
Globulin, Total 2.2 g/dL 1.5 - 4.5
A/G Ratio 2.2 1.1 - 2.5
Bilirubin, Total 0.5 mg/dL 0.0 - 1.2 01
Alkaline Phosphatase, S 63 IU/L 39 - 117 01
LDH 174 IU/L 121 - 224 01
AST (SGOT) 24 IU/L 0 - 40 01
ALT (SGPT) 20 IU/L 0 - 44 01
GGT 17 IU/L 0 - 65 01
Iron, Serum 77 ug/dL 38 - 169 01
Lipids 01

Cholesterol, Total 161 mg/dL 100 - 199 01
Triglycerides 53 mg/dL 0 - 149 01
HDL Cholesterol 59 mg/dL >39 01
Comment 01
According to ATP-III Guidelines, HDL-C >59 mg/dL is considered a
negative risk factor for CHD.
VLDL Cholesterol Cal 11 mg/dL 5 - 40
LDL Cholesterol Calc 91 mg/dL 0 - 99
T. Chol/HDL Ratio 2.7 ratio units 0.0 - 5.0
Please Note: 01
T. Chol/HDL Ratio
Men Women
1/2 Avg.Risk 3.4 3.3
Avg.Risk 5.0 4.4
2X Avg.Risk 9.6 7.1
3X Avg.Risk 23.4 11.0
Estimated CHD Risk < 0.5 times avg. 0.0 - 1.0
T. Chol/HDL Ratio
Men Women
1/2 Avg.Risk 3.4 3.3
Avg.Risk 5.0 4.4
2X Avg.Risk 9.6 7.1
3X Avg.Risk 23.4 11.0
The CHD Risk is based on the T. Chol/HDL ratio. Other
factors affect CHD Risk such as hypertension, smoking,
diabetes, severe obesity, and family history of premature
CHD.
Testosterone,Free and Total
Testosterone, Serum >1500 High ng/dL 348 - 1197 01
Comment:
Adult male reference interval is based on a population of lean males
up to 40 years old.
Free Testosterone(Direct) >50.0 High pg/mL 8.7 - 25.1 02
FSH and LH
LH <0.2 Low mIU/mL 1.7 - 8.6 01
FSH <0.2 Low mIU/mL 1.5 - 12.4 01
Hemoglobin A1c
Hemoglobin A1c 5.3 % 4.8 - 5.6 01
Please Note: 01
Pre-diabetes: 5.7 - 6.4
Diabetes: >6.4
Glycemic control for adults with diabetes: <7.0
Thyroxine (T4) Free, Direct, S
T4,Free(Direct) 1.29 ng/dL 0.82 - 1.77 01

DHEA-Sulfate 687.0 High ug/dL 102.6 - 416.3 01
Cortisol 7.1 ug/dL 01
Cortisol AM 6.2 - 19.4
Cortisol PM 2.3 - 11.9
TSH 1.180 uIU/mL 0.450 - 4.500 01
Prolactin 10.4 ng/mL 4.0 - 15.2 01
Estradiol 8.1 pg/mL 7.6 - 42.6 01

Prostate-Specific Ag, Serum
Prostate Specific Ag, Serum 0.8 ng/mL 0.0 - 4.0 01

IGF-1
Insulin-Like Growth Factor I 288 High ng/mL 83 - 233 02

Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy 36.9 ng/mL 30.0 - 100.0 01

Growth Hormone, Serum <0.1 ng/mL 0.0 - 10.0 02
Progesterone 2.0 High ng/mL 0.2 - 1.4 01
Insulin 4.5 uIU/mL 2.6 - 24.9 01
Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum 28.2 nmol/L 16.5 - 55.9 01


#5

I don't think it was a honeymoon phase because I had already had that weeks prior when I started on the Androgel at 100 mg a day. It lasted for about 2 weeks and things went back to normal (I think because natural production dropped off or E2 ratio got out of balance).

Then I began the IM shots and Arimidex and got right back to where I wanted to be. Does anyone stay revved up and sexual all the time on TRT? I have some days where I am tired and not that way but 9 out of 10 days I am 16-18 years old again sexually. LH was included in the Hormone Panel and although not needed, it was more cost effective to do the panel including LH.

C Hunter


#6

BLShaw - What T level do you think is to be considered "steroid user?" I sure don't feel like one but who knows? My doctor was shooting to keep me around Total T = 1300's.


#7

Shoot for the top of the FT range and not higher and you should be okay.


#8

Hyper sexuality typically does not last forever. I was good for 2-3x per day for months and wife told me to back off after a few weeks.

When you have multiple threads, we have to research past threads or ask the same questions again and provide the same advice, or start to ignore your posts if comprehensive responses are impossible. And you do not have a single thread to go back to to review suggestions we have made. It is a mess.

Still do not know time of day for lab work, but you may have now provided that in some other thread.

Do not allow total cholesterol to get any lower! Not healthy.

Aim for E2=22pg/ml
If you get E2=15pg/ml, change dose by a factor of 15/22

Your most obvious risk with high T is HTC, hematocrit, and you have not tested that!


#10

Correct, highest level of the range. You need to watch your cholesterol and hemocrit levels really well with long term use of high doses. Your cholesterol is actually good right now, lucky, as the ratio is the important part according to most recent studies. High T can drive down your HDL. High hemocrit can turn your blood to syrup. You may never have any issues, but you asked what could happen. Its your personal choice. Do you want to feel like a beast, look like a beast, and chance reducing your life 10+ years? Personal choice. I'm not a steroid advocate so my opinion is biased.


#11

My doc has had me on 200mg/wk Test Cyp for the last 90 days now (no ancillaries)... doing labs tomorrow... will be interesting to see if my blood work reflects this or not.

That said, I'm primary and had super low E2... I have definitely seen some benefits (increased libido, increased lean mass)... but nothing like the OP is stating. Don't feel like superman... just a small yet recognizable increase in quality of life.


#12

Everybody reacts differently. Running 200mg/wk is uncommon but not that uncommon. I was running 140mg/week due to high SHBG which pushed my TT to 1400 (ref 385-1100) but my free T to 25 which the range topped out at 26 ng/dl. So some people that is fine. Usually 200mg/wk is the cap for normal TRT upper range doses to poor responders. But again, everybody is different and labs show whats going on as a result.


#13

I was running 220 mg / week but also applying 100 mg a day of Androgel (50 mg in AM and 50 mg before bed) while switching over from gel to injections so I was getting a double dose for awhile.

Dr. Shippen (for anyone who doesn't know him he is one that 100's of doctors go to hear speak on the issue) also says that he sometimes has his patients apply the T cream to the privates to rebuild any atrophy in the pecker and for higher absorption and DHT conversion. I have no genetic pre-disposition for male pattern baldness or prostate issues (although research says this is not a real issue) so I was applying some to my unit.

The skin allows for a much higher absorption (research showed around 50-55% instead of 10-15%).

Dr. Shippen also said that DHT is more a more powerful libido kicker which was the reason I did it.

So I was getting s pretty big dose. I also read that when T is on the rise (referred to as "direction") the libido and other benefits are super but when it is steady they normalize a bit. So I have been considering upping my dosage by applying the gel only Thursday through Saturday so my levels are rising into the weekend when I want to be horny and then stopping the gel Saturday night to coast to a more reasonable T number.

Then gel again the following Thursday again. Sort of a "libido blast and cruise" that never ends so long as my Hemadocrit and cholesterol behave for me.

I love the sexual boost more than any other benefit but all of it is awesome really. Also, it could be your E2 being too high or low that messes up the fantastic effects.

Please keep in mind that I research heavily, read a new book about every week on this subject and have a higher risk tolerance than most - I am not saying do what I do, just saying what I do that is working for me. Be careful.

I am either going to keep them high and watch carefully or do little mini blast and cruises from week to week to yo-yo my libido. But I will continue the shots the whole time. I just use the gel to get the direction on the rise because it feels so good. The decline though feels shitty even going from 2000 to 1500 which is surprising. I guess if going up feels good, going down feels not so good.

If that doesn't get my desired results, I will just calm down and shoot for 1300+ Total T. But damn 2000 Total and 50+ Free felt pretty good, lol. However I don't want to die so will be doing labs about every 3 weeks. And especially on days when I feel great or feel like shit. I want to see labs when I feel awesome so I know what to shoot for and when I feel shitty to know what went awry.

Getting things where I want them would be expensive

C Hunter


#14

Hey KSman, one recent day when I felt crazy libido, very strong, confident, etc (a "great day"), I ran to the labs for bloodwork to see what that equated to on paper.

My E2 was at 8 which I understand to be low.

My protocol at the time called for 1mg of Anastrozole on Monday and 1/2 mg of Anastrozole on Tuesday. Those were the days I felt my BEST. The blood labs were taken on that same Tuesday.

Then things kind of went back to normal by that night . Right after that, I reduced my Anastrozole to 1/2mg and 1/4mg on those respective days because the E2 at 8 made me think I was taking too much Anastrozole and havent felt a "great day" since.

Do you think it was normal to have E2 at 8 after two consecutive days dosing the Anastrozole?

I know that if I test for Testosterone on a day I dose that will be higher so it seems to make sense that E2 would be at it's lowest point after two consecutive days of taking Anastrozole. Monday amd Tuesday are the only two days I am supposed to take Anastrozole consecutively.

And if that seems logical, do you think I should go back to those previous Anastrozole doses? I am leaning towards yes but want to get thoughts from someone with many points on their curve.

Thanks, C Hunter


#15

There will be swings and its hard to attribute them to anything. Alternate between AI doses and see if there is a persistent pattern.

Re Cholesterol: The voodoo about cholesterol is mostly not properly understood. It is not anabolic steroids - testosterone- that typically create adverse blood lipids in body builders, but I AI dosing used to get a dry look and low body fat by taking E2 extremely low. So there is a lesson there for you as well. Body builders also take a lot of things that can stress the liver and most cholesterol in your body is made in the liver. Anabolic steroids that are analogs of testosterone probably carry risks.


#16

Hi KSman!~

Does taking higher doses of AI bind SHGB and increase free T? If so, is that why I was so sexually aroused after taking the two days consecutive doses maybe? I don't want to take too much for fat reduction or anything like that. And I know that too low of E2 is bad but am trying to figure out if maybe that would explain the hyper-sexual behavior?

And to be sure I understand what you are saying about cholesterol - you mean I need to make sure it doesn't go too low while on TRT right?

I am shooting to be optimal in every way I can but in as healthy a way as possible. I really appreciate your advice and expertise.

C Hunter :slight_smile:


#17

I was taking a gram a week for over a year and when i finally tested, my TT was over 5000. I felt great like you describe but i listened to some advice of the brothers on this board and cut my levels in half. Havent tested again but i basically feel the same. I'm shooting for high optimal.

BTW, I take 20 mg nolva every day and donate blood every 8 weeks and take a daily aspirin. BP is great, libido is great, no hair loss.


#19

AI has zero binding affinity for SHBG.

AI reduces T-->E2 and then E2 levels drop to a new balance point.
With lower E2 you get these effects:
* FT:E2 increases
* lower E2 leads to lower SHBG, take time, then you get less T_SHBG and more FT, so FT:E2 increases more

You probably felt dropping E2 and increasing FT:E2

Really low E2 can cause cholesterol/lipid problems. Total cholesterol=180 is ideal, 160 and below is a health risk.


#20

Hi KSman, I forgot to come back and thank you for your advice and direction. I appreciate you. That goes for all who posted on this thread.

C Hunter32