Dock Workers

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Teachers unions, mentioned earlier, do very little to improve the quality of education and in fact contribute more to the reverse. They make it next to impossible to remove terrible teachers from a position and will fight tooth and nail to keep someone employed despite horrific performance in the classroom. [/quote]

I was more or less just talking about the need for skilled labor vs. unskilled labor in certain industries, but ya I agree that’s what teachers unions seem to have become. [/quote]

They’ve managed to sell the public on things like teach to student ratio that have very little impact on education.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Teachers unions, mentioned earlier, do very little to improve the quality of education and in fact contribute more to the reverse. They make it next to impossible to remove terrible teachers from a position and will fight tooth and nail to keep someone employed despite horrific performance in the classroom. [/quote]

I was more or less just talking about the need for skilled labor vs. unskilled labor in certain industries, but ya I agree that’s what teachers unions seem to have become. [/quote]

They’ve managed to sell the public on things like teach to student ratio that have very little impact on education. [/quote]

I’m not saying they’re doing a good job.

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

At my university, there are office administrators making $40/hr, just because they’ve been there long enough to receive ten step raises.
Time spent on a job should not be a factor in getting a raise, if you’re just doing the same shit. [/quote]

We agree, but I would point out that I think step raises are useful for keeping up with inflation year to year.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

At my university, there are office administrators making $40/hr, just because they’ve been there long enough to receive ten step raises.
Time spent on a job should not be a factor in getting a raise, if you’re just doing the same shit. [/quote]

We agree, but I would point out that I think step raises are useful for keeping up with inflation year to year.[/quote]

Kind of leads to a chicken and egg scenario doesn’t it?

A little off the original topic, but I have never been able to grasp the concept of public unions. The tax payers pay to have services provided by government agencies. Whether it be teachers, police, general state workers etc. We pay these people according to industry standards and theoretically what the agency and municipality can afford based on tax revenue. Public employees unionize and collectively bargain with their respective agency or municipality, which is in turn the taxpayers. So public unions in general bargain to raise taxes.
I personally do not agree with unions, but public unions, without even getting into how they heavily influence elections, should be completely done away with.

[quote]Alrightmiami19c wrote:
A little off the original topic, but I have never been able to grasp the concept of public unions. The tax payers pay to have services provided by government agencies. Whether it be teachers, police, general state workers etc. We pay these people according to industry standards and theoretically what the agency and municipality can afford based on tax revenue. Public employees unionize and collectively bargain with their respective agency or municipality, which is in turn the taxpayers. So public unions in general bargain to raise taxes.
I personally do not agree with unions, but public unions, without even getting into how they heavily influence elections, should be completely done away with.[/quote]

Agree, completely.

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Pangloss, regarding your third point, is having high school or grade 10 really a barrier to entering the workforce? That’s about all I could find regarding the ILWU requirements, so I may be mistaken.
To me it isn’t.
[/quote]

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify. I was referring to union shops keeping non-union labor out of the work force. They act as a barrier to entry for labor; you either join the union or you don’t work.

I just know that we couldn’t get Coconut Oil at Trader Joe’s for a few weeks because of the strike.

Let’s keep this simple. If it effects Puff’s grocery shopping experience, it’s bad.

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Pangloss, regarding your third point, is having high school or grade 10 really a barrier to entering the workforce? That’s about all I could find regarding the ILWU requirements, so I may be mistaken.
To me it isn’t.
[/quote]

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify. I was referring to union shops keeping non-union labor out of the work force. They act as a barrier to entry for labor; you either join the union or you don’t work.
[/quote]

Ok, that makes more sense, thanks for explaining further.

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]Alrightmiami19c wrote:
A little off the original topic, but I have never been able to grasp the concept of public unions. The tax payers pay to have services provided by government agencies. Whether it be teachers, police, general state workers etc. We pay these people according to industry standards and theoretically what the agency and municipality can afford based on tax revenue. Public employees unionize and collectively bargain with their respective agency or municipality, which is in turn the taxpayers. So public unions in general bargain to raise taxes.
I personally do not agree with unions, but public unions, without even getting into how they heavily influence elections, should be completely done away with.[/quote]

Agree, completely.
[/quote]

YES!

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

At my university, there are office administrators making $40/hr, just because they’ve been there long enough to receive ten step raises.
Time spent on a job should not be a factor in getting a raise, if you’re just doing the same shit. [/quote]

We agree, but I would point out that I think step raises are useful for keeping up with inflation year to year.[/quote]

Kind of leads to a chicken and egg scenario doesn’t it?[/quote]

Sure, in the scenario you are thinking of. They don’t need to happen every year, in fact I don’t think that’s wise at all because it leads inexorably to the “paid to sit in your chair by seniority” scene. However, at some point you’re going to have trouble keeping up. EDIT: If you’re an hourly employee without contract review. If you’re salaried or have contract review, that’s a different story because you can negotiate a bit.

Card carrying IBEW member here since 1996.

The word “union” is like the word “dog”. Not all of them are the same. A teacher’s union or government union is a VERY different animal than a manufacture’s union or airline union which is also very different from a trade union.

Here’s MY experience with MY union, IBEW Local 26. I got a job as an electrical helper with a small motor control contractor and was told that this is a union shop so I had to go down to this place called “the Hall” and swear in and pay some money. When I asked why, I was told that it keeps the rif raff out and pay’s for the apprenticeship. “Well, what’s the apprenticeship?”, I asked.

“The apprenticeship is a five year program where you learn how to be a JOURNEYMAN INSIDE WIREMAN, which makes you competent to work on commercial and industrial equipment from 0v to 600v AC. The school is free and you get paid benefits, an annuity and a pension, and best of all, once you are a JOURNEYMAN INSIDE WIREMAN you can work anywhere in the US and Canada and have your certification recognized and you can make the “scale” of that jurisdiction.” That sounded cool to me, so I said, “I’d like to be an apprentice and learn how to be an Inside Wireman”. I was told, “get in line, son - LOTS of people want to be an inside wireman. If you ain’t got family in the trade already, it takes a few years to get in”. So I waited two and half years and got in on my third application.

Now I’m a white guy. When I asked some of my Minority brothers (and a few sisters) how long it took THEM to get in, they got in ON THEIR FIRST TRY. That kinda rubbed me the wrong way, but I brushed it off because HEY, IT’S FREE and I’ve been doing this for almost three years now and I’m pretty good at it.

During my apprenticeship, I was indentured. That meant that I had to OBEY the instructions of pretty much any Journeyman Inside Wireman that I was working with. Most of them were very competent tradesman, but then you always had a few that just liked to fuck with apprentices. My “class” started off with almost 200 apprentices. Only about 60 graduated. The school was no joke. If you got less than a 70% on any two tests, you failed. If you missed more than once class a year, you failed. If you slept during class, you failed. If you pissed positive for anything, you failed.

If you didn’t show up to work, you had to go in front of the board and beg to keep your job. It definitely served to weed out the rif raff. If you quit the apprenticeship at any time during the five years, you are required to pay for the cost of your education to that point. They seriously don’t fuck around - it was hard and a lot of people didn’t make it. Most people failed out during the second year when we had to master AC theory - which is some serious math (beyond vector trigonometry). In fact the apprenticeship gives you 60 - 90 college credits depending upon which university you apply to.

It is a VERY high standard that it above and beyond ANYTHING that the non-union schools can provide. The school is amazing. It has computer labs, motor control labs, VFD labs, a training manhole to learn confined space safety, pipe bending labs, high voltage cable splicing, welding, fire alarm, etc… And the emphasis on safety is second to none - each apprentice graduates with an OSHA 40 hr certification.

Once you are a journeyman inside wireman, you are held to a standard. If you install something that is in violation of the current National Electric Code (and it is your job as a PROFESSIONAL electrician to keep current on all of the changes over the years) then you are required to come back ON YOUR OWN TIME and fix your mistakes. We do NOT tolerate incompetence or stupidity. If you fuck up too many times, you will go before the board and they will kick you out. Contractor and customers recognize this…

My union has about 7500 members and serves over 250 local contractors in the DC metropolitan area. Some of them are big shops, some of them are small shops. Some shops specialize, some shops are general. But I can work for ANY of them and know that my benefits will not be interrupted and that I will make at least the prevailing wage. Local 26 has a NO STRIKE CLAUSE in our contract and we negotiate our compensation every three years. We are reasonable and play Win:Win with our contractors, because most of our contractors have owners and stake holders that were once INSIDE WIREMEN!

The level of craftsmanship and quality that we deliver can not be compared to our non-union counterparts. When a job is complete, the workers are laid off and go down to the hall and get sent out with the next company who is hiring. OR, if the company you are with has a lot of work, you are transferred to the next job or kept busy with service work. It’s common to work for twenty or thirty different contractors during the course of a 30 year career (sometimes the same contractor every few years). OR, some guys stay with the same shop for decades. As long as your dues are paid, you are entitled to work with that contractor.

The down side is that if none of the contractors have any work, you “sit on the bench” for sometimes months at a time. You are still expected to pay your dues during that time (there are hardship exceptions that are sometimes made, but you have to go before the board to ask). If you are caught working for a non-union electrical contractor WHILE YOUR NAME IS ACTIVE ON THE BOOK, you are kicked out of the union. Many people travel the country working for various contractors. When I was laid off, I went down south (I detailed this in a thread several years ago). When work picked back up, I came back.

The only non-union shop in our area that competes is MC Dean which is made up of primarily ex-union guys who left for various reasons. Most non union electrical companies in this area do residential or light commercial construction/maintenance. But all of the gov’t work, hospitals, data centers, heavy commercial construction is ALL union around here.

What’s the difference between a Journeyman Inside Wireman and an electrician? Any asshole with a swinging dick and a pair of Kleins can call himself an electrician. Only a person who has graduated from a JATC accredited union apprenticeship can call himself an Inside Wireman.

Can anyone here argue that MY union, Local 26 does not provide value?

My union is VERY different from those assholes shutting down the ports in California. My union is VERY different than the greedy, lazy assholes that drove the car manufacturing industry into the ground in Detroit. My union is VERY different than the government and teachers unions who serve only to protect incompetent idiots and promote them.

Not all unions are the same, yet we are all painted with the same brush and it pisses me off. Many of the members of Local 26 that I know are Conservatives. We recognize that the “good times” were under a free market and business friendly environment. Right now over 90% of the new construction work is in Norther Virginia and DC - MD has simply “regulated themselves out of the market” as far as attracting new business. We see that and we don’t follow the “party line” and just vote democrat.

Our dues pay for our pension, our annuity, the apprenticeship, the salaries of our reps and the lease of our union hall and various buildings. There is VOLUNTARY form you can fill out to have MORE dues taken out of your check for political purposes. No one fills out that form… My dues do NOT support the democratic party. We voted on that decades ago. But we still fight for the RIGHT to organize.

Cliff notes:

Trade unions = good

big company, gov’t, teacher, etc… unions = bad

Non - union trade companies = less competent, less safe, less money, less benefits

Bottom line is you get what you pay for.

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Card carrying IBEW member here since 1996.

The word “union” is like the word “dog”. Not all of them are the same. A teacher’s union or government union is a VERY different animal than a manufacture’s union or airline union which is also very different from a trade union.

Here’s MY experience with MY union, IBEW Local 26. I got a job as an electrical helper with a small motor control contractor and was told that this is a union shop so I had to go down to this place called “the Hall” and swear in and pay some money. When I asked why, I was told that it keeps the rif raff out and pay’s for the apprenticeship. “Well, what’s the apprenticeship?”, I asked. “The apprenticeship is a five year program where you learn how to be a JOURNEYMAN INSIDE WIREMAN, which makes you competent to work on commercial and industrial equipment from 0v to 600v AC. The school is free and you get paid benefits, an annuity and a pension, and best of all, once you are a JOURNEYMAN INSIDE WIREMAN you can work anywhere in the US and Canada and have your certification recognized and you can make the “scale” of that jurisdiction.” That sounded cool to me, so I said, “I’d like to be an apprentice and learn how to be an Inside Wireman”. I was told, “get in line, son - LOTS of people want to be an inside wireman. If you ain’t got family in the trade already, it takes a few years to get in”. So I waited two and half years and got in on my third application.

Now I’m a white guy. When I asked some of my Minority brothers (and a few sisters) how long it took THEM to get in, they got in ON THEIR FIRST TRY. That kinda rubbed me the wrong way, but I brushed it off because HEY, IT’S FREE and I’ve been doing this for almost three years now and I’m pretty good at it.

During my apprenticeship, I was indentured. That meant that I had to OBEY the instructions of pretty much any Journeyman Inside Wireman that I was working with. Most of them were very competent tradesman, but then you always had a few that just liked to fuck with apprentices. My “class” started off with almost 200 apprentices. Only about 60 graduated. The school was no joke. If you got less than a 70% on any two tests, you failed. If you missed more than once class a year, you failed. If you slept during class, you failed. If you pissed positive for anything, you failed. If you didn’t show up to work, you had to go in front of the board and beg to keep your job. It definitely served to weed out the rif raff. If you quit the apprenticeship at any time during the five years, you are required to pay for the cost of your education to that point. They seriously don’t fuck around - it was hard and a lot of people didn’t make it. Most people failed out during the second year when we had to master AC theory - which is some serious math (beyond vector trigonometry). In fact the apprenticeship gives you 60 - 90 college credits depending upon which university you apply to. It is a VERY high standard that it above and beyond ANYTHING that the non-union schools can provide. The school is amazing. It has computer labs, motor control labs, VFD labs, a training manhole to learn confined space safety, pipe bending labs, high voltage cable splicing, welding, fire alarm, etc… And the emphasis on safety is second to none - each apprentice graduates with an OSHA 40 hr certification.

Once you are a journeyman inside wireman, you are held to a standard. If you install something that is in violation of the current National Electric Code (and it is your job as a PROFESSIONAL electrician to keep current on all of the changes over the years) then you are required to come back ON YOUR OWN TIME and fix your mistakes. We do NOT tolerate incompetence or stupidity. If you fuck up too many times, you will go before the board and they will kick you out. Contractor and customers recognize this…

My union has about 7500 members and serves over 250 local contractors in the DC metropolitan area. Some of them are big shops, some of them are small shops. Some shops specialize, some shops are general. But I can work for ANY of them and know that my benefits will not be interrupted and that I will make at least the prevailing wage. Local 26 has a NO STRIKE CLAUSE in our contract and we negotiate our compensation every three years. We are reasonable and play Win:Win with our contractors, because most of our contractors have owners and stake holders that were once INSIDE WIREMEN! The level of craftsmanship and quality that we deliver can not be compared to our non-union counterparts. When a job is complete, the workers are laid off and go down to the hall and get sent out with the next company who is hiring. OR, if the company you are with has a lot of work, you are transferred to the next job or kept busy with service work. It’s common to work for twenty or thirty different contractors during the course of a 30 year career (sometimes the same contractor every few years). OR, some guys stay with the same shop for decades. As long as your dues are paid, you are entitled to work with that contractor. The down side is that if none of the contractors have any work, you “sit on the bench” for sometimes months at a time. You are still expected to pay your dues during that time (there are hardship exceptions that are sometimes made, but you have to go before the board to ask). If you are caught working for a non-union electrical contractor WHILE YOUR NAME IS ACTIVE ON THE BOOK, you are kicked out of the union. Many people travel the country working for various contractors. When I was laid off, I went down south (I detailed this in a thread several years ago). When work picked back up, I came back.

The only non-union shop in our area that competes is MC Dean which is made up of primarily ex-union guys who left for various reasons. Most non union electrical companies in this area do residential or light commercial construction/maintenance. But all of the gov’t work, hospitals, data centers, heavy commercial construction is ALL union around here.

What’s the difference between a Journeyman Inside Wireman and an electrician? Any asshole with a swinging dick and a pair of Kleins can call himself an electrician. Only a person who has graduated from a JATC accredited union apprenticeship can call himself an Inside Wireman.

Can anyone here argue that MY union, Local 26 does not provide value?

My union is VERY different from those assholes shutting down the ports in California. My union is VERY different than the greedy, lazy assholes that drove the car manufacturing industry into the ground in Detroit. My union is VERY different than the government and teachers unions who serve only to protect incompetent idiots and promote them.

Not all unions are the same, yet we are all painted with the same brush and it pisses me off. Many of the members of Local 26 that I know are Conservatives. We recognize that the “good times” were under a free market and business friendly environment. Right now over 90% of the new construction work is in Norther Virginia and DC - MD has simply “regulated themselves out of the market” as far as attracting new business. We see that and we don’t follow the “party line” and just vote democrat. Our dues pay for our pension, our annuity, the apprenticeship, the salaries of our reps and the lease of our union hall and various buildings. There is VOLUNTARY form you can fill out to have MORE dues taken out of your check for political purposes. No one fills out that form… My dues do NOT support the democratic party. We voted on that decades ago. But we still fight for the RIGHT to organize.

Cliff notes:

Trade unions = good

big company, gov’t, teacher, etc… unions = bad

Non - union trade companies = less competent, less safe, less money, less benefits

Bottom line is you get what you pay for. [/quote]

Long, but did read.

Good post, a broad brush is never a good thing.

Good post AC, I think the general term of trades can get confused with respect to general labor vs skilled trades, etc.
Just to argue, if you “inside wiremen” are so skilled and in-demand, why do you need a union?

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

Out of curiosity; do you feel the same about police and firefighter unions?
[/quote]

YES.

Our police are members of a union, and they make a dump truck load of money and benefits. We also have one of the lowest crime rates in the nation for a town under 150K people…and have long before the Union came calling.

This forces the police to basically write every ticket possible to produce revenue and justify their salaries. This brings animosity from the community.

On any emergency call, a minimum of FOUR vehicles respond…a full fire truck, a assistant fire marshall, a ambulance and a police officer.

We call it the cat in a tree call.

Union rules.[/quote]

I respect your consistency. I suspect we agree about the ‘heart of the matter’.

Like all companies unions could be good or bad. And like other companies, as long as there is no coercion, I don’t really care what they do. But by the same token, large companies aren’t all bad either. Walmart, for example, provides really cheap goods to millions of poor people. It also hires thousands of people who are all but un-hirable and would be un-hirable at a higher wage. Workers still work there because, by their own admission, their lives are better off than if they didn’t.

I largely feel similarly about corrupt companies as I do about things like the civil rights movement. I would much prefer that places go out of business than you force a place to do better while maintaining the corrupt people in power.

If you think walmart is bad, don’t work for them and don’t buy from them.

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Good post AC, I think the general term of trades can get confused with respect to general labor vs skilled trades, etc.
Just to argue, if you “inside wiremen” are so skilled and in-demand, why do you need a union?
[/quote]

The Union is precisely the reason we are skilled. The apprenticeship is only offered to Union members - we created it and fund it with our dues. But really, it’s the best practices that you learn from the guys in the field. I guess the part that I left out was emphasizing the on the job training you get during your apprenticeship. You switch contractors every year so that you get a variety of work experience. Generally speaking, the entire five years, you spend every single day working with an experienced journeyman learning the best practices and tricks of the trade. The shit they don’t teach in school. The very subtle ways of doing things that can make the difference between a “good” installation and a “great” installation. They don’t just teach anyone, these “trade secrets” are only passed on to those who demonstrate the ability and have LOYALTY to the Union. Not everyone learns them.

The best day of my apprenticeship was the day my foreman told me to put down the broom and go work in the gear room with Old Scotty - one of the best and most respected old timers in the Union. I got to be HIS apprentice! I learned more from that guy in one year than many of my counterparts did their entire five year apprenticeship. Which put me WAY ahead in terms of knowledge and experience. I applied myself very hard and learned everything I could from all of the guys I had the privilege of working for.

It’s a very “sacred” relationship. Almost like “master/student” or “sempai/kohai”… You swear an OATH… (that concept still means something to some people) To help your brothers and (I’m paraphrasing here) to be the best electrician you can be by helping and teaching eachother to BE the best… It’s about brotherhood. I’ve helped my brothers without question. It was one of my brothers I went through the apprenticeship with who got me the job that brought me back from the Gulf of Mexico. It’s more than just a “job” or “career” or “trade” - it’s bigger than that. We really take care of each other.

Are there exceptions to that? Of course - there are assholes in every organization. But for the most part, it’s a very positive group of men (and a few women) who take their careers VERY seriously and recognize that the only way their pension is going to be funded is if they pass on as much knowledge to the younger guys so that they can carry the torch on and continue to be the best. We take pride in our work and it shows.

Here’s an example of a “day in the life” of what I do:

I just finished and emergency service call on a generator main output breaker. I got the call at noon on Sunday and finished up Monday evening. I diagnosed a problem with 4000A Siemens main output breaker on a 3MW Alban Cat generator (this generator and enclosure is as long as my house). Before I could even work on it, I had to order a roll up 2.5 MW Alban Cat Power Module and cable it up (after I calculated the load at approximately 1330A @ 480V). I had to integrate the start circuit with the existing switchgear controls and wire the block heater to the nearest shore power panel. I had to create a response plan for the customer involving Lock out/Tag out so that I could work on the broken generator safely and not get electrocuted if the roll up generator started. The customer I’m working for had upgraded from Siemens to Schneider/Square D MasterPact circuit breakers so that’s all we had in our critical spares inventory. So I had to tear apart an old switchgear to get the proper “fingers” for the back of the breaker (rated for 4000A), install a PowerLogic 6.0 trip unit (the existing breaker had a 5.0) because a generator is considered a “service” and a service needs ground fault protection. I installed two solenoid shunts for the EPO and 120v charging motor in the new breaker and retrofitted the generator output enclosure to accommodate the new breaker frame. I plated out the copper bus bar to the proper KCmil and drilled it out so that it lined up with the load side of the generator feed (I had to be accurate to within a 1/16th of an inch or it would not have fit or lined up), and I re wired the controls, including tapping the block heater for 120v to feed the charging motor. I drilled and tapped the line side bus fingers to accommodate the voltage sensing relay and re-calibrated a neutral CT for the new trip characteristics of the new over current protection. Once the breaker was installed I torqued the lugs to 65 ftlbs and put a load bank on the generator for two hours to simulate the load. Once I was satisfied, I re-integrated the auto controls, wired up the start/run signal and called it a day…

I did all that in 30 hours with no sleep and one coffee break by myself (I did take a cat nap during the load bank). I don’t know very many UNION electricians that know how to do that, much less any NON-union guys. I billed over $130,000.00 in 30 hours… At a 15 and 10 margin… I saved my customer MILLIONS of dollars in down time had that generator not operated properly when called on.

The skill level between Union and non-union (in my area) isn’t even comparable. But I wrote all that so you guys could get a glimpse of the value I can provide a customer. Do I think some retard with a tenth grade education driving a forklift should get paid as much as a doctor? HELL NO! I think that particular variety of Union membership is completely ridiculous (and possibly illegal). It pisses me off when I hear it because it makes guys like ME and MY union brothers look bad when in fact we are actually QUALIFIED to make the money that we do. There is a difference.

I get paid significantly over “scale” and I have a company vehicle, paid holidays, vacation, AmEx card, etc… I earned 250K last year and I’m worth every fucking penny. I’ve NEVER “slowed work down” or done ANYTHING that was not in my customer’s best interest. In MY union, we have integrity. We take pride in being the best because we have to: if we make mistakes shit EXPLODES and people can DIE… I take that responsibility VERY seriously. I begin EVERY installation with the thought of how to manage the fault current when this particular piece of equipment gives up the ghost. I start with clearances, grounding and bonding and move on from there. We learn that the first day after watching hours of video of explosions and people with various states of flash burn injuries. It’s VERY serious.

Thanks for elaborating AC, wasn’t trying to be a dick, just wanted to hear your answer.
I guess like I said before with general labor being equated to skilled trades, it’s the same with unions, you have general labor unions and skilled trade unions.
I’m glad to hear that yours is composed mostly of non-dickheads.

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Thanks for elaborating AC, wasn’t trying to be a dick, just wanted to hear your answer.
I guess like I said before with general labor being equated to skilled trades, it’s the same with unions, you have general labor unions and skilled trade unions.
I’m glad to hear that yours is composed mostly of non-dickheads.[/quote]

I’m happy to provide a different perspective. I didn’t take your question as dickish at all. The general attitude some people have about unions is just like how some people over react about dogs. If a pit bull mauls a kid, do we automatically go around saying , “all dogs are dangerous”? NO, we put that INDIVIDUAL dog down…

A union dockworkers union is different from a teachers union is different from a manufacturers union is different from a skilled trade union.

The dynamics of each of those "broad categories is VERY different:

Dockworkers/other “transportation” unions:
-generally unskilled
-very little transfer of skill (how long does it take to learn how to drive a forklift or pick up a box?)
-history of cooperation with the Mafia/illegal smuggling, etc…
-propensity to strike
-the IMPACT of a strike affects the entire economy
-prone to “slowdowns” and “stoppages” with little repercussions
-focus on worker safety (which I DO think is important)

Teachers/government/state employees:
-membership is linked directly to employment
-membership is coercive
-there is no apprenticeship or transfer of skill
-representation focuses on protecting member’s job - even in cases of gross negligence or incompetence
-the TAXPAYER is on the hook for the salary (and by extension, the representation - WE PAY FOR IT!)
-pay scale is based on seniority, not ability
-strikes (yes, teachers DO strike) affects entire communities
-focus on limiting hours and expectations that effectively lower the value the employee is expected to provide

Manufacturers/airlines/ “single large company” unions:
-membership is coercive
-there is no apprenticeship or transfer of skill
-focus on safety (again, this is important and oftentimes companies totally screw workers over on this - I have seen it first hand)
-pension is tied DIRECTLY to the fortune of the single company
-employment is tied DIRECTLY to the fortune of the single company
-employee and employer interests are often in direct conflict (greedy boss vs. low paid worker dynamic)
-employees feel “entitled” to something other than a job and benefits
-when they strike, the stock and value of the company is directly affected
-when there is an unresolved labor dispute, it can drag on for months, affecting profitability and production
-pension liabilities can cripple the current profit margin if the single company has a bad year

Skilled trade:
-there is period of indentured apprenticeship, usually 4 - 5 years
-skill and trade secrets are passed on
-spirit of fraternity and brotherhood
-pension, heath insurance and other wealth building strategies are often incorporated in negotiated hourly rate (you start saving even when you are 20 years old and too stupid to do it yourself)
-membership is spread across many different companies
-certification is internationally recognized and respected
-Local chapters are often more involved and able to adapt to LOCAL conditions/economies
-Strikes don’t shut down anything other than the construction project manned by the members striking (the economy is not affected)
-many local unions have no strike clauses and rely on arbitration to settle labor disputes
-pension liabilities are spread wide and funds and investments are transparent to union members - we elect the officers who manage those funds, they are not “appointed”, WE control our destiny
-are generally acknowledged as being the “standard” to meet by our non union trade counterparts - WE set the bar.

I would say that many unions have become too powerful when they have the ability to affect the economy over a labor dispute. But I also think that without some checks and balances for companies, safety often get’s thrown to the wind in the interest of profit. History has shown this time and time again that companies don’t value employee safety when workers are not collectively represented. Construction and other “dangerous” occupations can still benefit from organization of workers, but these slowdowns, strikes and stoppages that affect the economy are just ridiculous.

But on the flip side, how “dangerous” is an office job?

One more thing: there was complaints about the wage of the dock workers in SAN FRANCISCO… Do you know what the cost of fucking living in San Francisco is? If you have a job AT THE PORT, and you can’t afford to live in the city, you are looking at a two hour commute each way every day for thirty years. That isn’t fair. If a worker has an important JOB in the city (I would call dock workers an important profession that is vital to our economy), then his wage should reflect that. The union pay scale in Washington DC is 40 something an hour, the pay scale in the Shenandoah region, just 70 miles away is half that - it reflects the cost of living. I don’t have a problem with that.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Edgy wrote:
get rid of unions, and all ya’all’ll suffer.

think corporate greed is out of control now? [/quote]

Typically when someone tries to tie greed and corporations together they pick non-union corps (like Wal-mart). So how would eliminating unions change corporate greed at all?

[quote]
Did the unions create the problem that caused the world into a recession? No, who did? right~ [/quote]

Lets not pretend unions ascended straight from heaven. Unions are one of the reasons Detroit is so messed up.

[quote]
Unions are their own worse enemy, there is no arguing that point, but so are the corporations. [/quote]

I don’t think the two are all that comparable.

[quote]
One needs the other to temper the situation, and come to an agreeable resolution. [/quote]

Maybe. Maybe not.

[quote]
As for the safety aspect, OSHA is in place, that is for sure, and it is underfunded - this means that there are less inspectors and the addition of workplace protections that Unions provide allow for workers to stand up and contact OSHA without the repercussions. for the most part, anyway. [/quote]

Okay.

[quote]
As for the comment that they were useful 100 years ago, but not now…Ask the corporations 100 years ago if they were needed and they would have said the same thing. [/quote]

I’m not sure what that has to do with anything.

hey UC, I ain’t smart enough to figger out how to do all this fancy quoting, but here goes…

  1. Eliminating Unions would not stifle Corporate Greed - I would just go unchecked, and the American worker would suffer.
  2. Unions are probably the direct reason why Detroit suffered - That and…CORPORATE GREED!
  3. The two are probably more comparable than you would think - probably as polarized as our political status, but I digress…
  4. yeah…yeah they do.
  5. Whew…agreement? nice~
  6. I was trying to make a point on a point made earlier about unions being needed 100 years ago, but not today. Thats all~
  7. Umm - yeah, you’re right - that was just nonsense.

amidoinitrite?