Doc Said Protein/BCAA's Are Bad

[quote]inthego wrote:
HoratioSandoval wrote:
Artem wrote:

WTF?!?!? This guy is a quack. Is he a chiropractor? Never go back to this person. If you want to keep seeing a chiropractor, find one associated with MDs and physical therapists (like in a sports medicine clinic), or one that they recommend.

This is what I was going to post after reading your story.
There are really good chiropractors and Acupuncturists out there but some are really Toony toons…

you should say th.th.th.th. that’s all folks to your Dr. and get a 2nd or 3rd opinion…[/quote]

The same could be said of many “conventional” doctors as well always at the ready to prescribe you some pharmacueticals your body doesnt need.

[quote]entheogens wrote:

“For breakfast, eat bacon and eggs…sunny side up.”
This dude went on about healthy fats and all, but honestly, greasy ass bacon and fried eggs as opposed to soft boiled eggs and vegetables?..

Well, he got that one RIGHT!

Then, he had me lie down and cup my hand. He kept experinemting with putting different pills into my hand. He later told me that he was testing which ones I needed with electronegativity, somehow.

It’s called Applied Kinesiology or Muscle Testing. It’s highly subjective and I don’t know how reliable that is.
Certainly, if you are looking at it from mainstream science, it looks like complete quackery. Is it? I don’t know one way or the other.

[/quote]

In a certain respect, one could look at traditional Mainstream medicine as “quackery” just as much as this prime example.
Considering that many (the majority actually) of pharmacueticals do nothing to address the root physiological causes/basis of the diseases they only symptomatically treat, mainstream medicine by default is “quackery” just with a lot of well-paid experts at the helm.

I dont discount many conventional doctors intelligence and smarts such as in their ability to properly diagnose patients and their conditions, just that their education too often is smeared with certain instilled biases as a result of just who funds the majority of med schools that leads to less-than-optimal patient wellness.

[quote]Varanid wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:
Zagman wrote:
Doctor>Internet Advice.

Doctors know less about muscle physiology, biochemistry, nutrition, supplementation, endocrinology, and weight training than 90% of posters on any weight lifting forum, guaranteed.

Internet Advice > Doc Advice

By a fucking mile

Doctors exist to feed you 50 year old FDA approved guidelines. RDA and all that bullshit.

About once in a million years, they will actually give you a bit of advice that doesn’t come straight out of some 1960’s medical textbook.

I assume you are referring to medical doctors?

Why is it there are actually people here who think that because they post some “exercise and nutrition” advice over the web, they are more qualified than a medical doctor. This is the 2nd post like this in the last few days.

This is ridiculous. The fact that you think 90% of the posters on any weight lifting forum knows more about physiology, biochemistry, nutrition, supplementation, endocrinology, and weight training is insane.

This is coming from the individual that started a thread stating that he did not know the physiology behind muscle soreness and hypertrophy.

Please.

[/quote]

Are you a doctor? Have you been to medical school? No? Wow, I can hardly believe it. The truth is, in my personal experience, a general partitioner knows a relatively small amount about sports nutrition.

My pediatrician who I still see on regular basis is always bugging me about my workouts, what I’m eating and the reasoning behind it. She is very receptive to my ideas and opinions and has always complimented me on my understanding of metabolism and biochemistry and that I took the time to understand the hard science behind it all. Honestly, I don’t know jack compared to some folks on this site, not to mention the authors here. I wouldn’t be so quick to judge just because this info comes off the internet.

In a certain respect, one could look at traditional Mainstream medicine as “quackery” just as much as this prime example.
Considering that many (the majority actually) of pharmacueticals do nothing to address the root physiological causes/basis of the diseases they only symptomatically treat, mainstream medicine by default is “quackery” just with a lot of well-paid experts at the helm.

I dont discount many conventional doctors intelligence and smarts such as in their ability to properly diagnose patients and their conditions, just that their education too often is smeared with certain instilled biases as a result of just who funds the majority of med schools that leads to less-than-optimal patient wellness.

I couldn’t agree with this more! Awesome post!

[quote]analog_kid wrote:
Varanid wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:
Zagman wrote:

Are you a doctor? Have you been to medical school? No? Wow, I can hardly believe it. The truth is, in my personal experience, a general partitioner knows a relatively small amount about sports nutrition.

My pediatrician who I still see on regular basis is always bugging me about my workouts, what I’m eating and the reasoning behind it. She is very receptive to my ideas and opinions and has always complimented me on my understanding of metabolism and biochemistry and that I took the time to understand the hard science behind it all. Honestly, I don’t know jack compared to some folks on this site, not to mention the authors here. I wouldn’t be so quick to judge just because this info comes off the internet.

[/quote]

No I am not a doctor. I am also not in medical school. I am in my 2nd year of a doctoral physical therapy school where I have taken post graduate level classes of medical physiology, pathology, pharmacology, neurology, dissected a dozen cadavers and treated patients in the clinic.

I do not consider any of the classes and work that I have done to be anywhere near as difficult as the things that the med students I know go through…not even close. When I graduate I will be a doctor, but anything like a medical doctor? Once again…not even close. I also do not feel that I am any “better” than anyone else here- so don’t go down that road.

If it seemed like I was attacking you or those that you hold in high esteem here on T-Nation, I wasn’t. But if you think that such a large number of people on weightlifting forums are more qualified than a trained medical doctor at physiology, biochemistry, nutrition, supplementation, and endocrinology than you have a sever lack of understanding of the scope of their practice.

I will give you that a general practitioner or any specialist that has been far removed from things related to physical training may be subpar compared to some of those here…but that is it.

[quote]Varanid wrote:
analog_kid wrote:
Varanid wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:
Zagman wrote:

Are you a doctor? Have you been to medical school? No? Wow, I can hardly believe it. The truth is, in my personal experience, a general partitioner knows a relatively small amount about sports nutrition.

My pediatrician who I still see on regular basis is always bugging me about my workouts, what I’m eating and the reasoning behind it. She is very receptive to my ideas and opinions and has always complimented me on my understanding of metabolism and biochemistry and that I took the time to understand the hard science behind it all. Honestly, I don’t know jack compared to some folks on this site, not to mention the authors here. I wouldn’t be so quick to judge just because this info comes off the internet.

No I am not a doctor. I am also not in medical school. I am in my 2nd year of a doctoral physical therapy school where I have taken post graduate level classes of medical physiology, pathology, pharmacology, neurology, dissected a dozen cadavers and treated patients in the clinic.

I do not consider any of the classes and work that I have done to be anywhere near as difficult as the things that the med students I know go through…not even close. I also do not feel that I am any “better” than anyone else here- so don’t go down that road.

If it seemed like I was attacking you or those that you hold in high esteem here on T-Nation, I wasn’t. But if you think that such a large number of people on weightlifting forums are more qualified than a trained medical doctor at physiology, biochemistry, nutrition, supplementation, and endocrinology than you have a sever lack of understanding of the scope of their practice.

I will give you that a general practitioner or any specialist that has been far removed from things related to physical training may be subpar compared to some of those here…but that is it.
[/quote]

No, I didn’t take your post as any kind of an attack on me or anyone else. I would still however argue all of these points with you. Endocrinology? You’ve got to be kidding me! If you are over the age of 45 and score even well below normal, good luck on getting HRT. After all, what do hormone levels have to do with over health?

My sister-in-law recently had rotator cuff surgery. Her doctor’s rehabbing methods were laughable, and big surprise, my sister is in more pain now than she was before surgery. Years ago my brother attempted to lift with me. He complained of elbow pain and went to see his doctor. He said that I had him working to hard(I put him on a newbie program, deadlift, squat, and bench with silly low weight so we could get his form down), and that to ease the pain, he should take 2 Advil before workouts.

Like that song goes: “Just who do you think you are? Medical school don’t make you God.” Doctors, like any profession or field has some good and some bad. To just assume all of them are the end all be all when it comes to knowledge of the human body is absurd. Does every plumber know everything about plumbing? Is every lawyer and expert on divorces? Does every personal trainer know everything about training? The human body is stupidly complex. I’m sure I don’t have to tell you how little we actually know about what really goes on inside us all, especially upstairs in the brain thingy.

Dr. John Berardi recently voiced his opinion on this subject:

And before you call me a doctor hating nazi, I will say that my father’s doctors have put him back together several times(he’s had two heart attacks, colon cancer, diabetic, skin cancer). I’ve played golf with his cardiologist and have nothing but respect for him, he is one of the nicest, most genuine human beings I have ever met. But he doesn’t know shit about post-workout nutrition. :smiley:

[quote]Varanid wrote:
This is coming from the individual that started a thread stating that he did not know the physiology behind muscle soreness and hypertrophy.

Please.[/quote]

  1. There is no proven physiology behind muscle soreness and hypertrophy. That was the point of my post. Your best bet for hypertrophy is still muscle soreness because the latter is the only way you know FOR SURE that muscle breakdown has occurred. You can have breakdown without DOMs (you wouldn’t know it) but the presence of DOMs is a 100% certain indication that breakdown has, indeed, occurred.

  2. Insofar as any corellation exists, I can explain it far, FAR better than any M.D. In fact, I could explain it better than an Exercise Science Ph.D., because I know how to explain it in real world terms. Academics don’t. Theory is pointless because you can’t observe muscle fibers without a microscope. Everything needs to be explained at “top level”.

I have yet to find a single example of a mainstream doctor doing something useful, innovative, or intelligent.

Can anybody come up with one? Eh?

The ONLY thing they do is dispense advice straight from the 1950’s:

  • “Exercising” means doing aerobics
  • Protein is bad for your kidneys
  • Fat is bad for your heart
  • Load up on carbs, they’re the only “good” macronutrient
  • Supplements are dangerous and don’t work

These people earn $100/hr and dispense CRAP for a living. You get on the internet and you get cutting edge information for FREE. How’s that for a comparison?

The internet is golden. Doctors are absolutely, positively horrible and I would pay a random net poster over a doctor in a heartbeat. I would get diagnosed over the internet in a heartbeat. You can get multiple opinions from people who are the best in the field. You go to a Doc, and you have no way of knowing beforehand whether he’s top or mediocre. The majority are the latter. If you go to a medical forum on the internet, nearly every single person who hangs out there is going to be top notch, because mediocre individuals wouldn’t have the inclination to post on medical boards.

The internet brings out the absolute best in all fields.
You can get a diagnosis, you can get a prescription, you can order the drugs…all online.

I would like to see more people trashing doctors and fewer people trashing the net. The latter has done far, FAR more good than the former.

[quote]Artem wrote:
I went to a doctor 2 days ago about my back pain/slight spine curve to talk to him and see what he can do to fix it. He started talking to me about working out and nutrition…

So, I went in today and first, he had me lie down and put some electrode things on my back that sent very light electricity into my back muscles and made them pulse; this lasted 20 minutes.

Then, he had me lie down and cup my hand. He kept experinemting with putting different pills into my hand. He later told me that he was testing which ones I needed with electronegativity, somehow.

He did that and told me to take Vasculin, Catalyn, and Ligaplex II, which are some supplements made out of different plants and whatnot to help with the ligaments and vascular system.

So then, he tested which supplements my body in particular could absorb. To his surprise, he told me that the Creatine was fine, but the Vitamin Shoppe brand BCAAs that I’m taking and the generic brand Protein powder is doing nothing for me…[/quote]

This guy is probably not an MD. The test is bullshit. Don’t go back.

You are 15, you probably don’t need to see a doctor about backpain. You are probably stuck in a little chair at school for hours a day.

Eat right, exercise right and don’t worry about it.

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
I have yet to find a single example of a mainstream doctor doing something useful, innovative, or intelligent.

Can anybody come up with one? Eh?

The ONLY thing they do is dispense advice straight from the 1950’s:

  • “Exercising” means doing aerobics
  • Protein is bad for your kidneys
  • Fat is bad for your heart
  • Load up on carbs, they’re the only “good” macronutrient
  • Supplements are dangerous and don’t work

These people earn $100/hr and dispense CRAP for a living. You get on the internet and you get cutting edge information for FREE. How’s that for a comparison?

[/quote]

So true!

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Artem wrote:
I went to a doctor 2 days ago about my back pain/slight spine curve to talk to him and see what he can do to fix it. He started talking to me about working out and nutrition…

So, I went in today and first, he had me lie down and put some electrode things on my back that sent very light electricity into my back muscles and made them pulse; this lasted 20 minutes.

Then, he had me lie down and cup my hand. He kept experinemting with putting different pills into my hand. He later told me that he was testing which ones I needed with electronegativity, somehow.

He did that and told me to take Vasculin, Catalyn, and Ligaplex II, which are some supplements made out of different plants and whatnot to help with the ligaments and vascular system.

So then, he tested which supplements my body in particular could absorb. To his surprise, he told me that the Creatine was fine, but the Vitamin Shoppe brand BCAAs that I’m taking and the generic brand Protein powder is doing nothing for me…

This guy is probably not an MD. The test is bullshit. Don’t go back.

You are 15, you probably don’t need to see a doctor about backpain. You are probably stuck in a little chair at school for hours a day.

Eat right, exercise right and don’t worry about it.[/quote]

Agreed, but do you see how all of these complaints get lodged at the entire medical field? I don’t know of any MD’s who would worry about testing supplements in this way.

Regarding the science of Applied Kinesiology:
Check out this James Randi video - - YouTube

I can’t absorb cheap whey protein powder - it gives me gas like crazy - so there’s a chance that your doctor was making reference to the piss poor quality of the powder (assuming that it was a piss poor powder).

One thing we know for certain is that bacon and eggs for breakfast has a LONG history and things that have a long tradition tend to be assumed to be facts.

And train your back and your hamstrings and anything that you can’t see in a mirror.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Artem wrote:
I went to a doctor 2 days ago about my back pain/slight spine curve to talk to him and see what he can do to fix it. He started talking to me about working out and nutrition…

So, I went in today and first, he had me lie down and put some electrode things on my back that sent very light electricity into my back muscles and made them pulse; this lasted 20 minutes.

Then, he had me lie down and cup my hand. He kept experinemting with putting different pills into my hand. He later told me that he was testing which ones I needed with electronegativity, somehow.

He did that and told me to take Vasculin, Catalyn, and Ligaplex II, which are some supplements made out of different plants and whatnot to help with the ligaments and vascular system.

So then, he tested which supplements my body in particular could absorb. To his surprise, he told me that the Creatine was fine, but the Vitamin Shoppe brand BCAAs that I’m taking and the generic brand Protein powder is doing nothing for me…

This guy is probably not an MD. The test is bullshit. Don’t go back.

You are 15, you probably don’t need to see a doctor about backpain. You are probably stuck in a little chair at school for hours a day.

Eat right, exercise right and don’t worry about it.

Agreed, but do you see how all of these complaints get lodged at the entire medical field? I don’t know of any MD’s who would worry about testing supplements in this way.[/quote]

I noticed the disconnect. Some quack (who may not even be an MD) does some outlandish test and all of the sudden all medical doctors are idiots because they are not completely knowledgeable outside their field.

I didn’t ask my knee surgeon for dietary advice, I asked him to fix my knee. We discussed diet and training because we are both washed up athletes but he didn’t tell me what to do.

The only people I know that do get diet and training suggestions from their doctors are people that do need to make a change. I am nothing special but I am in better shape than 95% of people my age and my doctors have never felt the need to suggest any real changes.

[quote]905Patrick wrote:
Regarding the science of Applied Kinesiology:
Check out this James Randi video - - YouTube
…[/quote]

I can’t watch the video but I found this on wiki:

[i]

“Nutrient testing” is used to examine the response of various of a patient’s muscles to assorted chemicals. Gustatory and olfactory stimulation are said to alter the outcome of a manual muscle test, with previously weak muscles being strengthened by application of the correct nutritional supplement, and previously strong muscles being weakened by exposure to harmful or imbalancing substances or allergens.[10][12][14] Though its use is deprecated by the ICAK,[15] stimulation to test muscle response to a certain chemical is also done by contact or proximity (for instance, testing while the patient holds a bottle of pills).

A double-blind study was conducted by the ALTA Foundation for Sports Medicine Research in Santa Monica, California and published in the June 1988 Journal of the American Dietetic Association. The study used 3 experienced AK practitioners and concluded that, “The results of this study indicated that the use of Applied Kinesiology to evaluate nutrient status is no more useful than random guessing.”[16]
[/i]

At 15 I could see any doctor telling you to stick to whole foods verse using protein supplements. Too many people use protein supplements as a replacement for whole foods so I actually agree with the doc on this one.

I have no comment on the whole electrode thing.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I can’t watch the video but I found this on wiki:
[/quote]

The video basically shows the same thing. The best part of the video is the look in the AK’s face when they realize that they are going to be shown to be a fraud.

Is this a Doctor or a fuck-tard Chiro who thinks everything can be cured with Chiropractic?

Did he muscle-test you?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I didn’t ask my knee surgeon for dietary advice, I asked him to fix my knee. We discussed diet and training because we are both washed up athletes but he didn’t tell me what to do.

The only people I know that do get diet and training suggestions from their doctors are people that do need to make a change. I am nothing special but I am in better shape than 95% of people my age and my doctors have never felt the need to suggest any real changes.[/quote]

Yeah, you’d have to go to a dietician for nutrition advice.

And the advice you’d get would be horrible.

Add another strike against docs.

DOCS only take on average 1 nutrition class through their 8 years of schooling.

I’ve seen around 5 doctors that have professed that creatine is the devil. Protein powder is bad news. Basically any pills are bad except the ones they prescribe.

umm he is 15 yrs old and by the sounds of it he is lifting heavy weights…correct me if im wrong and mans body dosnt stop growing untill 18 and everyone i have talked said will say not to life heavy weights untill as close to 18 as posible

i mean u can get super fit and super tonned doing mass body weight things and low weights high reps

al lthe suplemments ur talking is prob a waste of time to due to ur bosy having plenty of it in storage…i mean who was eva out of energy at 15?

plz correct me if im wrong here

[quote]Soffa wrote:
umm he is 15 yrs old and by the sounds of it he is lifting heavy weights…correct me if im wrong and mans body dosnt stop growing untill 18 and everyone i have talked said will say not to life heavy weights untill as close to 18 as posible

i mean u can get super fit and super tonned doing mass body weight things and low weights high reps

al lthe suplemments ur talking is prob a waste of time to due to ur bosy having plenty of it in storage…i mean who was eva out of energy at 15?

plz correct me if im wrong here[/quote]

My eyes…