T Nation

Doc is Clueless

Doc tested me for low test. Came back 270. Said I need to be in 500 range. Prescribed me Testim 1% daily. Did that for last 8 weeks and I did feel better. Gained some weight for a change (American Indian hardgainer see pic arm above). Developed rash on arms where applied. Went back last Friday gave me vials of Test Cyp 200 MG each. Injected it in my thigh and next day felt like someone gave me a charlie horse. Easing up some now.

Told me to self inject 2 doses once every two weeks then continue every 4 weeks thereafter. Have some questions because the doc is clueless. I could read up and have but lot mixed opinions as people vary. I am a very busy 52 yr old businessman who has been weightlifting 10 years + and need the Cliff notes version. Willing to send 50.00 Paypal to the most helpful. I have a ton of common sense and can get up to speed fast. Just lack time.

Ok my doc just goes by test number. Here they are,10 short,simple and to the point questions;

  1. How can I bring doc up to speed on my needs? (Dosage,my desired test level etc)
  2. What basic tests should I request?
  3. How much do I need to start adding moderate amount muscle? (I would like to add 20lbs)
  4. How do I convince doc to up dose if needed?
  5. Should I cycle since amount at present is low dose?
  6. Do I need a PCT if dose is so low? OTC PCT worthless?
  7. If won’t increase dose can I just use scripts I have available to load and then use Testim to maintain?
  8. Do I need a hairloss pill?
  9. Would HGH combined help with overall well being and adding mass? If so how much?
  10. Workout reps,sets,intensity and how often for age and now with Test? (Current w/out rotation switched up every 4 weeks,3x10,5x5,8-10 x4 spending 30-45 min each day,M Arms,T Chest,W Shoulders,T Back and Friday Legs. One week go to failure followed up next week stopping each set about 2 reps short of failure focusing on one Compound exercises and two single muscle exercises)

So there it is. Take your best shot.

Rob

If you have been weight training for 10 years with that physique you are doing something wrong. My 2 cents. You don’t necessarily need more test to grow, just a better nutrition and workout plan.

Hey Rob,

The questions you have that are actually about TRT are covered heavily in the Stickies (the first several posts on the front page), and the questions you have that aren’t about TRT should be asked in a different forum(s). Most of your questions have nothing to do with a proper (“normal”) TRT protocol and are more like performance enhancement/BB stuff. Not that that is a bad thing - this just isn’t the proper place to be asking those questions.

This is a place for guys who are trying to fix their hypogonadism (Low T), and get stable, normal, testosterone levels, and improve their quality of life. It isn’t the right place for getting information on Cycling, PCT, HGH, and dosing testosterone for bulking purposes. You’ll find guys who are much more knowledgeable about those subjects on the “Steroids” sub-forum. Your lifting questions should be asked in either the “Over 35 lifter” or any of the other training forums.

For the time being I would STRONGLY recommend you start by reading through the “Protocol” Sticky because your dosing pattern is really awful and needs to be changed immediately! Dosing once every other week is a nightmare. Reading through that Sticky won’t just tell you WHAT to do, but WHY you should do it that way.

Getting on TRT after only having one lab is really irresponsible and your doctor should know better (hence why you started this thread!). There is a ton of work to be done before a single needle touches your skin, and there is a lot of research you should do to become an informed patient. Giving you the “Cliff Notes” version would be doing you a disservice - this is all stuff that you should know in and out since none of us will be in the office the next time you see your doctor, and none of us will be able to answer your’s and your doctor’s questions and concerns at that moment.

TRT is for life, as in every week until you die. Try and make time to learn as much as you can.

If you are looking to shed some light on your (possible) hormone issues, read through the Stickies (otherwise you are wasting everyone’s time by asking questions that have already been answered 1000 times), get the labs done that are recommended, and then feel free to ask any questions pertaining to normalizing your hormones. I wouldn’t even THINK about looking into doing any sort of cycling (and adding other stuff into the mix) until you have at least figured out your base-line health issues and fixed them. Also, your lack of knowledge on cycling/PCT should tell you that you aren’t anywhere near being in a place where you can consider doing that, and that you should spend a ton more time on the “Steroids” forum before deciding whether this is something you want to/should do. And again, thinking about cycling when you don’t know what your base-line health issues are isn’t a good idea.

This probably wasn’t the answer you were hoping for. I’d rather give you a dissatisfying answer that helps you, than answer your questions at face value and “help” you screw up your health because you didn’t follow the proper protocols. After reading the Stickies, please ask anything that is confusing or is unique to your situation that we can answer to help you get stable. Feel free to PM me if you want. Hopefully you’ll be able to get to the bottom of things soon!

Best of luck to ya!

[quote]T-Fal wrote:
If you have been weight training for 10 years with that physique you are doing something wrong. My 2 cents. You don’t necessarily need more test to grow, just a better nutrition and workout plan.[/quote]

Very helpful post, tell that to all the guys on a bodybuilding stage that they are wasting their time with test injections. All they need to do is train better and eat better to grow.

Guy comes on here asking for help and you reply with an idiotic degrading comment. Do you feel better about yourself now?

I think he looks good for a guy in his 50’s. Probably not as phenominal looking as you but we are not all gifted and blessed like you.

To the OP check out the stickies on this forum the first couple or so threads under this section.

Hey I am happy I can still se my toes while standing at 52. :wink:

Most guys my age are grossly over weight and out of shape. The first business I started was a carpet cleaning business. Up until 5 years ago I cleaned 4 homes a day for 5-6 days. I now have crews and started other business’s. It is true that many men don’t become very successful until they are in there 40’s-50’s. So long story short with 8 hours aerobics a day combined with low genetic ability (I have 4 brothers who each weigh about 160lbs) I am relatively happy to be where I am at 185 but would like to reach 200 with low bodyfat.

Ok with that out of the way. Two things I would like to say. One,T-Nation in the past was very helpful. Now it has a lot of sarcastic disingenuous posters who know everything. This only hurts the site and it’s admins. I know. My son owns the largest cleaning forum in the world, www.truckmountforums.com,and I see how jaded long time posters treat newbies and the dis-service they do the free site that they benefit from. Sad.

Two,the admin of this site moved my thread to this section. I started it in the Steroid section and he also changed the title. Odd but hey it’s their site. I still feel that their is a poster who can help but I will,and have been,keep researching the site stickies. Any direction still appreciated in this thread.

$50 is an insult. LOL I do this on a daily basis with Drs helping to provide information to make best choices for their patients.
We are not Drs here and only can make recommendations. Given you are at the age of proper replacement. Starting out with 40 mgs 2 times a week for 5 weeks then retests total T and e2. Once your get your T and e2 in check for a while then you can add in HCG . After 2-3 week you retest again. Its change one variable retest then make adjustments.

People have to many variables at play resulting in not knowing which end is up. You can gain 5-8 lbs of body weight, but gain 15 lbs of muscle. i can have people gain 20 lbs of fat and slop easily, lean muscle is different story. Hormones are just a small piece of the puzzle. Rest, digest, training, stress management are the other 80% .

Testing wise there are stickies above which are a good source of information.

[quote]suprarob wrote:
Hey I am happy I can still se my toes while standing at 52. :wink: [/quote]

52! I’m 35 and I have a feeling based on the old people in my family I will look like Wilford Brimley meets Herman Munster at 52. You’re doing well especially with the T levels of a 65 year old woman.

[quote]suprarob wrote:
Two,the admin of this site moved my thread to this section. I started it in the Steroid section and he also changed the title. Odd but hey it’s their site. I still feel that their is a poster who can help but I will,and have been,keep researching the site stickies. Any direction still appreciated in this thread.
[/quote]

I’m guessing it got moved here because you mentioned your low testosterone lab, and to some admin that immediately seemed like a low T issue, even though most of your questions weren’t really about TRT. So, since you did try over there first (which I appreciate since a ton of guys start over here when it’s obvious they have no interest and no qualifications for TRT) I’ll do my best to help you out. Maybe this was a thread that should have been broken up into parts and put on different forums? I don’t know, but I’ll chime in on the TRT part.

I really think you should hammer out your hormone problems before you consider cycling. If nothing else, if you find out you do in fact need TRT, then getting that in place will help your gym goals since, as it seems at the moment, you have inadequate testosterone levels which can’t be helping your muscle-building endeavors.

Since you are on testosterone now, a lot of your labs will be skewed. It is up to you (and your doctor) whether you want to proceed with TRT, or if you want to cycle off, get the appropriate base-line labs, and then go from there. The issue with staying on TRT is you might be on it without needing it. A lot of things will cause a low Total T score which is why so many labs are recommended in the “Blood Work” Sticky; You don’t just what to know THAT you have low total testosterone, you want to try to figure out WHY. If your low T is caused by (for example) thyroid disorder, then fixing that could bring your testosterone levels back to normal. Addressing any underlying issue that could be causing your low testosterone is important before committing to TRT as supplemental testosterone will shut down all natural testosterone production and will require testosterone supplementation for life. Why do it if it isn’t necessary?

Not to make excuses (funny how saying that always means the exact opposite is coming), but a lot of guys on here are jaded as we just came through summer time where one out of two new posters came to this forum with no hormone issues and were looking for advice on how to score “legal” steroids from a bunch of guys who have gone through the wringer (both physically and mentally) to try and get stable hormone levels. After months of guys who are too lazy to hit the gym posting thread after thread about how they want to score some 'roids, it kind of gives us a hair-trigger when we see ANOTHER thread asking mostly steroid questions. I know that your thread ending up here isn’t your fault, but none of us knew that until just now.

Anyway, I hope we can figure things out and get you up and running ASAP.

[quote]dbsmith wrote:

[quote]suprarob wrote:
Hey I am happy I can still se my toes while standing at 52. :wink: [/quote]

52! I’m 35 and I have a feeling based on the old people in my family I will look like Wilford Brimley meets Herman Munster at 52. You’re doing well especially with the T levels of a 65 year old woman.

[/quote]

Ha! That’s funny right there.

Any more before I try elsewhere?

[quote]suprarob wrote:
Doc tested me for low test. Came back 270. Said I need to be in 500 range. Prescribed me Testim 1% daily. Did that for last 8 weeks and I did feel better. Gained some weight for a change (American Indian hardgainer see pic arm above). Developed rash on arms where applied. Went back last Friday gave me vials of Test Cyp 200 MG each. Injected it in my thigh and next day felt like someone gave me a charlie horse. Easing up some now.

Told me to self inject 2 doses once every two weeks then continue every 4 weeks thereafter. Have some questions because the doc is clueless. I could read up and have but lot mixed opinions as people vary. I am a very busy 52 yr old businessman who has been weightlifting 10 years + and need the Cliff notes version. Willing to send 50.00 Paypal to the most helpful. I have a ton of common sense and can get up to speed fast. Just lack time.

Ok my doc just goes by test number. Here they are,10 short,simple and to the point questions;

  1. How can I bring doc up to speed on my needs? (Dosage,my desired test level etc)
  2. What basic tests should I request?
  3. How much do I need to start adding moderate amount muscle? (I would like to add 20lbs)
  4. How do I convince doc to up dose if needed?
  5. Should I cycle since amount at present is low dose?
  6. Do I need a PCT if dose is so low? OTC PCT worthless?
  7. If won’t increase dose can I just use scripts I have available to load and then use Testim to maintain?
  8. Do I need a hairloss pill?
  9. Would HGH combined help with overall well being and adding mass? If so how much?
  10. Workout reps,sets,intensity and how often for age and now with Test? (Current w/out rotation switched up every 4 weeks,3x10,5x5,8-10 x4 spending 30-45 min each day,M Arms,T Chest,W Shoulders,T Back and Friday Legs. One week go to failure followed up next week stopping each set about 2 reps short of failure focusing on one Compound exercises and two single muscle exercises)

So there it is. Take your best shot.

Rob[/quote]

Looks like you are set on trt, you have a doctor who is willing to prescribe test so it should be simple to get him on board.

  1. If going to shut yourself down with trt why aim for mid range shoot for high normal. Tell him you will dose 2x weekly at 50mg a shot total of 100mg a week. Run blood work 4 weeks later to check levels. If mid range increase dose since you want to be high normal 800-1000. Also check e2 and if high ask for anastrozole script and aim for 20-30 on your e2. if e2 high start .25mg e3d and see what happens. Once you get test and e2 dialed in and you notice your boys getting smaller might look at HCG to add that into the mix. I think the standard dose is 250 iu 3x per week. Might get by with 200 iu 3x per week. But leave the hcg after you a dialed in as once you add in hcg you may have to adjust your anastrozole or test dosage.

  2. The tests you need are listed in the sticky. Since age maybe get the dre,psa, cbc, check iron /ferritin levels, test and e2 levels to know baseline levels, cortisol. Might as well check thyroid function too. But take a look at the sticky all the tests listed.

  3. Everyone is different see what happens once you get levels high normal.

  4. If levels are not high normal increase dose. No point being shut down and low normal.

  5. No dont cycle stable high normal levels might be enough to achieve your goals in the long term.

  6. No pct during trt no point as you are on trt for life. Want to keep boys active add hcg as mentioned.

  7. Just stick with injections gels tend not to work for many people.

  8. Not sure but you may find extra hair loss if you are prone to it while on trt. I would avoid hair loss pills as I understand they are no good for other things. But maybe some reasearch on this would be needed if you are going to take hair loss pills.

  9. Don’t know too much about hgh but it could definitely help in feeling good. Depends if you can get legitimate stuff dosages are I think between 2-6 iu daily. Expensive stuff.

  10. All independant find what works everyone responds differently. You could do chest+biceps, legs, back+traps, triceps+shoulders.

irocz that is a dam good reply. Well thought out and considerate.

Interesting