Do You Underestimate Knife in Self Defense?

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

[quote]Quiet Warrior wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
If you get attacked by someone with knife who is serious about taking you out,do you think you could defend yourself (in situation where running away is not an option)?

What would you do?

What are you doing to prepare for it?

What do you think your chances of survival are?
[/quote]
Could I defend myself? That question is depending on many factors I can not influence. So my answer is: maybe.

If you are out of the range of the knife (that’s 5 meters) run and dont look back.
The problem that occurs is that nobody who wants to hurt you steps up from 20 meters while pulling out his knife and walking towards you. Most knife attacks are an ambush. You are caught in the middle of a conflict, often not even with the person drawing his/her knife, then sh*t hits the fan and you are set up.

I think you should try to ask the question in a different way:
If the chance occurs that you have to fight against somebody armed with a knife with no way out and possibly the intention to kill or cripple you, what would you do?

If you have a knife yourself and there is no way out - draw it. But do it so your attacker does not know you have it. If I know I have to go through a bad part of the city at night I always keep a small blade (nothing illegal) in my right butt pocket. If I am outnumbered or just in a really bad situation I can approach a hostile individual while pretending to reach out with my hand to my purse while playing a helpless and crying victim.
Unfortunately I can not tell you how I would deal in a knife vs knife fight. I do not have enough experience with that. Maybe someone else can help?

If you are unarmed and HAVE to fight, get in an on guard stance turning the inside of your wrists towards your body protecting your internal organs. If someone cuts your forearms it definitely hurts like hell but you are not going to die. As a matter of fact: most individuals die from knifefights because they lose too much blood from vein injuries that could be prevented. An artery will clog up after a while and stop bleeding if you put a tourniquet on it. Tuck your chin in to protect your neck. Stay lose, dont tense up. if you see something arround that you might grab and throw to save you precious time or something that you could use to get away or distract the opponent so you can land a hopefully devastating blow-do it.
Dont kick, your hands are faster. Dont even thing about kicking. Even if you are the Tang So Do champion of south korea, dont freaking kick. If your oponent knows how to deal with a knife he is going to cut your leg as soon as your leg is in range. ever tried to fight against an arme doponent with a severe open wound injury on your leg?
Dont try to grab the knife. Most victims of knife attacks have completely destroyed hands. Their finger and hand ligaments are all cut and torn because their instinctive reaction was to grab the blade directly.
Try to control the arm if possible. Use softening techniques to make the attacker lose the weapon. If that is not an option intercept the attacks. In Kali you are told that each of your oponents limbs represents a weapon. Destroy those weapons and you defeat the opponent. So punch his wrist, try to hit the back of the hand while simutaniousley moving your feet arround the opponent trying to run away or at least winning higher ground. If you have a thick jacket you can wrap it arround your leading arm. This might protect you from some cuts, but will definitely not make it possible for you to withstand a thrust with full force. If you manage to bring the attacker down to the ground without getting slashed into pieces try to further engage him. Stomp on his head, dont make him get up. Dont worry about what the heck will happen in the court. He approached you with lethal force and you have the right to protect yourself with lethal force in a situation like that. I would rather live knowing that I might have serverely injured another human who tried to attack me with something as dangerous as a knife than to get paid money from the attacker(if I’m still alive) and having injuries that will last for my entire life.

Chances of survival? Even if you are very well prepared your chances are arround zero. In my opinion it depends on the determination of the attacker. If that guy or gal has been training with knifes for a good time and really wants to kill you, you are screwed.

You can prepare yourself with safety knives and protective gear in a simulated real world situation against one or multiple attackers. I doubt that this kind of training will make you invincible, though it might give you an advantage.
When i first joined a martial arts school at age 9 the instructors would run at us with drawn knives and we would have to run away. The entire thing was implemented in a game, so we as children could learn without fear that the best defense against a knife on sight is to run like the wind.

It goes without saying that you have to check yourself after a knife fight for injuries. Many people are so shocked that they forget to take care of their injuries or call 911. The adrenaline rush after a situation like that is high enough to make you ignore things like cuts or gashes, so always check yourself or others for wounds with lethal potential

I hope some of the things I added were useful.[/quote]

Great post.

22

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
If you get attacked by someone with knife who is serious about taking you out,do you think you could defend yourself (in situation where running away is not an option)?

What would you do?
[/quote]
This is very, VERY situational. Accepting the conditions you set(my attacker is enthusiastic about killing me, and I am there for the duration) the short answer is “As much as I am able, as well as I am able, for as long as I am still able”. This is certainly a “run what you brung” affair so getting any dedicated or potential weapons into action for me is a priority. How that shakes out again depends on exactly what is going on.

As Jim pointed out if my first notice of the attack is serious, fight stopping damage than my problems are probably going to solve themselves. I recognize the story may well have a happy ending, but for someone else(movie refferance).

On the other hand I firmly believe that no intelligent man ever lost to a fella who anounced “I am gonna kick your ass.” So if I have warning, I am in it a bit more.

Actually a lot of what I train is predicated on not wanting to stand in front of threats, the notion that I do not know if anyone else is armed, and that not every weapon comes out at first.

I also tend to think everyone should carry at least a knife and a flashlight(and a clean handkerchief) and a pistol would be a great idea too.

Depends on the situation, and the ability of my attacker or attackers.

Given your premise things are already bleak.

Weapons where invented for a reason, so if it is anyone smart enough/lucky enough to pull off an ambush and they are competent I may be too far behind the power/initiative curve. If I am facing someone who would give me a rough time if we were both unarmed, but I am going against steel with finger nails and bad language than my chances are poor. If I can make enough time or opportunity to get something into my hands than I may not be the only one bleeding.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

My opinion is that fighting unarmed someone who can fight and also has a knife is really going against the odds.

23

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
Some great quality advice in this thread. Particularly great post by Quiet Warrior.

If someone who knows what they are doing gets the jump on you with a knife, chances are, you’re going to die whoever you are and whatever ninja art you know.

Your best, almost only defense against a knife, is your brain. Never walk down dark allies in bad areas at night, never walk close to shadows if you can avoid it, stay away from walls/solid opaque objects that could be hiding someone. Look around you constantly as you make your way down the street. This is most of what it takes to stay alive in bad areas. If you walk round these sorts of places with headphones in or anything valuable on display, well, frankly you deserve to get stabbed for your stupidity.

Being able to fight like hell can help, and the tips from Quiet Warrior and everyone else are definitely useful, if only to try and make sure you don’t die crying for your mother. Really though, if you let someone with a knife anywhere near you you are relying on their incompetence for your survival more than your mad skills.

Someone pushed me against a wall and held a knife against my throat when I was a kid. Instinct meant I kneed him instantly in the balls and smashed the point of my elbow on the back of his head repeatedly til he was on the floor, where he got fucked up some more. Why did I survive? Because I used extreme immediate violence, while he was just trying to intimidate me. If he’d been ready to do the deed I wouldn’t have got the chance to fight. I’d have been dead before I knew what was happening. Illustrates what I said above - if you’re in striking range of a knife, you better hope the guy using it is uninitiated, and more importantly doesn’t want to kill. Still, a 16 year old kid who just randomly stabs like crazy will probably take your life, however trained you are, if he needs a kill to get into a gang.[/quote]

I worked as a bouncer at this place.Threw out a very aggresive thug after a bit of wrestling and dragging and gave him a few kicks (I always wore a heavy duty robbust shoes as I prefer to kick in the thigh=it doesnt show on cameras if the place is packed,other clients or his mates dont see it…front kick in the thigh is painfull,but doesnt injure much).The guy backed off and walked away.

After 20 minutes he was back with a blade in his hand.I got quickly in,grabbed the chair and got out.I was at my job and couldnt run away and let him enter the club with a blade.So,he was
at the top of the stair standing there and I was at the bottom with a chair.I was so pumped with adrenaline and intent on taking his head off with a chair,that he didnt dare to rush down.

After about 10 minutes,cops turned up (the manager called them immediately seeing the blade) and arrested him while I hid coz I worked there with no contract.I guess I was lucky coz the chances were I would either got butchered or ended up in the court for taking that scumbag out.I heard later that he resisted police and got a few months in Spanish barr-hotel.

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Idaho,

please tell me you at least beat the shit out of that person? Or they went to jail for a long time. Thats too fucked up…

25

Another point, in a high percentage of edged weapons encounters people don’t see the blade initially. They often don’t know their in a knife fight until they see the blood and of course by then it may be too late.

This plays into Idaho’s critical point about always scanning the hands.

26

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
Knives are at least as dangerous as guns at close range. If a guy manages to get the drop on you with a knife it’s probably lights out. I’m pretty good and usually armed, but if the knife is between your ribs for the third time while you’re still processesing “he’s prison rushing me” it’s too late.

Assuming he waves it around first like a jackass, he’s getting shot until he stops moving. I’ve drilled pistol keep away on a rushing knife wielder before, with a decent draw and point shoot (and maybe leg kick) I’ve got him 8/10 times.

Unarmed against a knife? As above, and hope your insurance is paid up.[/quote]

Actually I’ve read that knives are 3x as lethal as firearms within their effective range. Bigger wound channels, even when wielded by an unskilled person they rarely miss and they never jam or run out of ammo.

27

[quote]batman730 wrote:
Actually I’ve read that knives are 3x as lethal as firearms within their effective range. Bigger wound channels, even when wielded by an unskilled person they rarely miss and they never jam or run out of ammo.[/quote]

+1. And someone sticking a blade into you is more traumatising than a bang and a neat hole done by a bullet, so quite often the shock is worse = faster pulse = worse blood loss.

28

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:
Haven’t had knives pulled on me. Had screw drivers and battery jumper cables and bats pulled out.
Not a situation I look back on and think I was intelligent, just lucky. All situations I rushed them stepping off to their off sides and dropped em hard. [/quote]

Good job! Did you gave them a hell of a kicking later? ;))[/quote]

Clothes lined two off them and one with a cross hook and he was almost out on the floor too just moaning. (oh, three separate occasions lol)

Too many people public to lay the boot in but it’s at those times when your humanity is tested. I mean inside, honestly I wanted to stomp on their heads all three times. It’s just the violation I felt of being attacked with a weapon. I felt ashamed it took the consciousness of people around me and not my own empathy to stop from continuing.

The fact is, they were out, no need to carry on and that should be the light bulb that comes on rather than letting ourselves be controlled by rage and our carnal selves.

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[quote]SKELAC wrote:
My opinion is that fighting unarmed someone who can fight and also has a knife is really going against the odds.
[/quote]

Pretty much.

30

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
I’d have been dead before I knew what was happening. [/quote]

I do not disagree with anything you said, save for the wording of this.

The vast majority of single cuts, stab wounds, or gunshot wounds are neither fatal nor incapacitating. People tend to stop fighting for psychological reasons. Barring damage to the central nervous system, that is brain or spinal chord, hypovolemic shock due to blood loss is the physiological reason for becoming unable to fight. This takes time. That may be measured in seconds, minutes, or hours. The biggest thing you have to fear from the first injury, is that it may make you more vulnerable to the next one.

If you are truly rendered unable to fight because of physiological issues, your situation will take care of itself. Until then, assume that any and all wounds are survivable and fight like the third monkey on the ramp to Noah’s Ark.

Your story indicates that you did just that.

To put it more strongly:

We all came into this world covered in someone else’s blood and screaming our head off. If we are to leave it the same way, than so be it.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

I agree completely on the non-(immediate)lethality of many wounds, although with a decent sized knife with serrated edges pressing against my throat before I took any action, I am inclined to stand by my original statement.

Also, fighting like the third monkey on the ramp to the ark, is a line worthy of Wodehouse himself. It also neatly describes the flailing mess of limbs that represented the reality of my approach, rather than the succinct, neatly choreographed version I presented above.

31

[quote]humble wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:
Haven’t had knives pulled on me. Had screw drivers and battery jumper cables and bats pulled out.
Not a situation I look back on and think I was intelligent, just lucky. All situations I rushed them stepping off to their off sides and dropped em hard. [/quote]

Good job! Did you gave them a hell of a kicking later? ;))[/quote]

Clothes lined two off them and one with a cross hook and he was almost out on the floor too just moaning. (oh, three separate occasions lol)

Too many people public to lay the boot in but it’s at those times when your humanity is tested. I mean inside, honestly I wanted to stomp on their heads all three times. It’s just the violation I felt of being attacked with a weapon. I felt ashamed it took the consciousness of people around me and not my own empathy to stop from continuing.

The fact is, they were out, no need to carry on and that should be the light bulb that comes on rather than letting ourselves be controlled by rage and our carnal selves.

[/quote]

I think its a pity the law protects lifes of scumbags who attack people with a knifes,but thats just my opinion.

32

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
Knives are at least as dangerous as guns at close range. If a guy manages to get the drop on you with a knife it’s probably lights out. I’m pretty good and usually armed, but if the knife is between your ribs for the third time while you’re still processesing “he’s prison rushing me” it’s too late.

Assuming he waves it around first like a jackass, he’s getting shot until he stops moving. I’ve drilled pistol keep away on a rushing knife wielder before, with a decent draw Andrews point shoot (and maybe leg kick) I’ve got him 8/10 times.

Unarmed against a knife? As above, and hope your insurance is paid up.[/quote]

Actually I’ve read that knives are 3x as lethal as firearms within their effective range. Bigger wound channels, even when wielded by an unskilled person they rarely miss and they never jam or run out of ammo.[/quote]

Well, yes and no. In the hands of the untrained you’re likely to encounter someone who holds the knife at full extension, hides behind it, and slashes with large motions. You’re likely to get cut, but it’s not as likely to be fatal unless you get caught on a major artery. These are not the people I worry about, but they are the ones who are likely using the knife as a threat/dominance display. If it’s directed at you, flight becomes much more possible, they want you to back off. If it’s for the benefit of their friends, you’re in more trouble, as friends like that are likely tougher than the guy you’re fighting and jumping him in.

The trained, you’re not likely to see coming, unless they’re the tougher friends of the untrained asshole you just fought off. Assuming you do have time to face off, trained guys are going to protect their knife, strike in tight fast patterns, and be much more likely to deliver a thrust, which has a far greater chance of reaching your vital organs. Usually once he lands one he’s going to bulldog you, stay in your face, and land a lot more as fast as he can. You probably won’t have time to reassess the questionable choices that got you into this ridiculous mess before he gets something important.

Even if you have a weapon, good luck deploying it with a real knife fighter bearing down on you. Like I said, the trained (and understand that training might just be multiple prison brawls and football riots) aren’t going to wave the knife around at you, and will be less hesitant to get in your face. You’ll probably have one second or less after seeing the knife to bring your weapon to bear. I can hardly get clear of the holster that quickly, and I’ve fired easily 50, 000 rounds from my draw stroke. A knife? Bet it’s a folder. Bet you don’t ever pull it and assault into an ambush (unless your name is Idaho). Hell, many folders are shit, couldn’t cut an apple skin, and fold right up if you thrust. On the off chance that you have a good, weapon quality folder or fixed fighting knife, once you survive you then have all the legal problems that go along with employing a concealed weapon in your jurisdiction.

Anyhow, as many have said, your best way to survive a knife fight is to not be in places where people with knives are attacking people.

33

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
Knives are at least as dangerous as guns at close range. If a guy manages to get the drop on you with a knife it’s probably lights out. I’m pretty good and usually armed, but if the knife is between your ribs for the third time while you’re still processesing “he’s prison rushing me” it’s too late.

Assuming he waves it around first like a jackass, he’s getting shot until he stops moving. I’ve drilled pistol keep away on a rushing knife wielder before, with a decent draw and point shoot (and maybe leg kick) I’ve got him 8/10 times.

Unarmed against a knife? As above, and hope your insurance is paid up.[/quote]

Actually I’ve read that knives are 3x as lethal as firearms within their effective range. Bigger wound channels, even when wielded by an unskilled person they rarely miss and they never jam or run out of ammo.[/quote]

Well, yes and no. In the hands of the untrained you’re likely to encounter someone who holds the knife at full extension, hides behind it, and slashes with large motions. You’re likely to get cut, but it’s not as likely to be fatal unless you get caught on a major artery. These are not the people I worry about, but they are the ones who are likely using the knife as a threat/dominance display. If it’s directed at you, flight becomes much more possible, they want you to back off. If it’s for the benefit of their friends, you’re in more trouble, as friends like that are likely tougher than the guy you’re fighting and jumping him in.

The trained, you’re not likely to see coming, unless they’re the tougher friends of the untrained asshole you just fought off. Assuming you do have time to face off, trained guys are going to protect their knife, strike in tight fast patterns, and be much more likely to deliver a thrust, which has a far greater chance of reaching your vital organs. Usually once he lands one he’s going to bulldog you, stay in your face, and land a lot more as fast as he can. You probably won’t have time to reassess the questionable choices that got you into this ridiculous mess before he gets something important.

Even if you have a weapon, good luck deploying it with a real knife fighter bearing down on you. Like I said, the untrained (and understand that training might just be multiple prison brawls and football riots) aren’t going to wave the knife around at you, and will be less hesitant to get in your face. You’ll probably have one second or less after seeing the knife to bring your weapon to bear. I can hardly get clear of the holster that quickly, and I’ve fired easily 50, 000 rounds from my draw stroke. A knife? Bet it’s a folder. Bet you don’t ever pull it and assault into an ambush (unless your name is Idaho). Hell, many folders are shit, couldn’t cut an apple skin, and fold right up if you thrust. On the off chance that you have a good, weapon quality folder or fixed fighting knife, once you survive you then have all the legal problems that go along with employing a concealed weapon in your jurisdiction.

Anyhow, as many have said, your best way to survive a knife fight is to not be in places where people with knives are attacking people.[/quote]

Very good post, as usual, Jim.

RE: Folders, fixed blades, handguns from concealment

One reason I tend to plug Spyderco knives is that you can get “drone” versions of some of their models so that you actually can practice getting the knife open and into action a bit safer, and with opposition.

Same reason for investing in a “blue gun”.

One of my big lessons was to not fixate on getting to my weapon. Instead, try to do what I need to make the space and/or time to get my weapon into it. Of course pulling that off tends to require that I be “better” or “luckier” than the person pressing the matter.

I really would start carrying a fixed blade, but the combination of No Badge/public perception of a halo and the fact I would need a custom sheath have me dragging my feet.

Also, it is funny you mentioned the 1 second mark for draw time. I just read that drawing and hitting a high probability target(IPSC “5-zone”, so about 6X12") from concealment, in 1 second, at 7 yards was one of Jeff Cooper’s standards for a good shooter. I tripped across that trying to evaluate how bad I should feel about my draw time. As it turns out, a sun dial is more my speed than an electronic timer.

Regards,

Robert A

34

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
Knives are at least as dangerous as guns at close range. If a guy manages to get the drop on you with a knife it’s probably lights out. I’m pretty good and usually armed, but if the knife is between your ribs for the third time while you’re still processesing “he’s prison rushing me” it’s too late.

Assuming he waves it around first like a jackass, he’s getting shot until he stops moving. I’ve drilled pistol keep away on a rushing knife wielder before, with a decent draw and point shoot (and maybe leg kick) I’ve got him 8/10 times.

Unarmed against a knife? As above, and hope your insurance is paid up.[/quote]

Actually I’ve read that knives are 3x as lethal as firearms within their effective range. Bigger wound channels, even when wielded by an unskilled person they rarely miss and they never jam or run out of ammo.[/quote]

Well, yes and no. In the hands of the untrained you’re likely to encounter someone who holds the knife at full extension, hides behind it, and slashes with large motions. You’re likely to get cut, but it’s not as likely to be fatal unless you get caught on a major artery. These are not the people I worry about, but they are the ones who are likely using the knife as a threat/dominance display. If it’s directed at you, flight becomes much more possible, they want you to back off. If it’s for the benefit of their friends, you’re in more trouble, as friends like that are likely tougher than the guy you’re fighting and jumping him in.

The trained, you’re not likely to see coming, unless they’re the tougher friends of the untrained asshole you just fought off. Assuming you do have time to face off, trained guys are going to protect their knife, strike in tight fast patterns, and be much more likely to deliver a thrust, which has a far greater chance of reaching your vital organs. Usually once he lands one he’s going to bulldog you, stay in your face, and land a lot more as fast as he can. You probably won’t have time to reassess the questionable choices that got you into this ridiculous mess before he gets something important.

Even if you have a weapon, good luck deploying it with a real knife fighter bearing down on you. Like I said, the untrained (and understand that training might just be multiple prison brawls and football riots) aren’t going to wave the knife around at you, and will be less hesitant to get in your face. You’ll probably have one second or less after seeing the knife to bring your weapon to bear. I can hardly get clear of the holster that quickly, and I’ve fired easily 50, 000 rounds from my draw stroke. A knife? Bet it’s a folder. Bet you don’t ever pull it and assault into an ambush (unless your name is Idaho). Hell, many folders are shit, couldn’t cut an apple skin, and fold right up if you thrust. On the off chance that you have a good, weapon quality folder or fixed fighting knife, once you survive you then have all the legal problems that go along with employing a concealed weapon in your jurisdiction.

Anyhow, as many have said, your best way to survive a knife fight is to not be in places where people with knives are attacking people.[/quote]

Pretty much agree with all of this, especially the last bit. Excellent points about deploying your shitty tacticool folder when it counts too.

Unfortunately not being there in the first place isn’t always practical even if you’re not duty-bound to go there. The last significant edged weapon assault here took place when the manager of a local restaurant/hotel suddenly went off the deep end and started stabbing his staff with a pair of scissors in the confined space of the kitchens/offices/hallways of the premises. He was not trained, but bad day all in all. Attempted murder x4 as I recall.

As for my initial statement regarding the comparative lethality of knife wounds vs. gunshots as a statistic, upon further inquiry it turns out this is a classic case of somebody who I assumed knew what they were talking about tossed out a “fact” which I accepted without question and have since repeated a few times. I can’t find anything to actually back that up at all. So I guess I have to apologize for running my mouth without engaging my brain, again.

Most of us IMO (including LEO in many jurisdictions) train in preparation for what are really pretty unlikely eventualities where the odds of a desirable outcome might be very long indeed. However, if you’re going to train at all it seems to me like you should treat that worst case scenario as though it is inevitable (without getting ridiculous about it).

35

[quote]batman730 wrote:
As for my initial statement regarding the comparative lethality of knife wounds vs. gunshots as a statistic, upon further inquiry it turns out this is a classic case of somebody who I assumed knew what they were talking about tossed out a “fact” which I accepted without question and have since repeated a few times. I can’t find anything to actually back that up at all. So I guess I have to apologize for running my mouth without engaging my brain, again.
[/quote]

Lethality is going to be mostly about placement/structures hit, with the physiological and psychological aspects of the victim getting thrown in, plus luck/chance.

I am guessing there are way, way too many confounding variables to be able to get a good comparison. Do we include “all gunshot wounds”(so accidental injuries, and intentional suicides)? Are we going to try to differentiate between “serious” attempts with a knife, and just an attempt at wounding/scarring? Beats the hell out of me.

At the end of the day it is more about what has a hole in it, than what made the hole.

Regards,

Robert A

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[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:
As for my initial statement regarding the comparative lethality of knife wounds vs. gunshots as a statistic, upon further inquiry it turns out this is a classic case of somebody who I assumed knew what they were talking about tossed out a “fact” which I accepted without question and have since repeated a few times. I can’t find anything to actually back that up at all. So I guess I have to apologize for running my mouth without engaging my brain, again.
[/quote]

Lethality is going to be mostly about placement/structures hit, with the physiological and psychological aspects of the victim getting thrown in, plus luck/chance.

I am guessing there are way, way too many confounding variables to be able to get a good comparison. Do we include “all gunshot wounds”(so accidental injuries, and intentional suicides)? Are we going to try to differentiate between “serious” attempts with a knife, and just an attempt at wounding/scarring? Beats the hell out of me.

At the end of the day it is more about what has a hole in it, than what made the hole.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Yeah, the more I think about it the more difficult it seems to establish any meaningful parameters for comparison. As you say, it’s definitely more about what has holes in it.

Either way, it’s a bad day.

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Great discussion so far!

In regards to scanning the hands for blades; it’s a good practice, but it’s no guarantee. We actually practice a “concealed” knife carry position where you can see both of our hands clearly, but are unable to see that we are holding a blade and you probably won’t see it until you are being cut by it (if you fail to maintain a safe distance or get a false sense of security and mentally underestimate me/us and “drop your guard”). Mr. Ryan shows this to LEO’s all the time and it tends to shatter their paradigm that "if you can see the hands and no weapon, they don’t have one at their immediate disposal.

Now, obviously Mr Ryan is one of the best and most knowledgeable knife/blade fighting instructors in the world (IMO #1) and has probably trained more hours with blades than most people have even thought about combative training (armed or otherwise) and so was able to come up with this method of carry, but that doesn’t mean some other bad guys haven’t figured the same thing out.

In regards to the original topic; I agree that it’s a crappy situation to find yourself in and that when fighting unarmed against an ambush knife attackthe odds are against you, but it still beats the alternative of embracing your execution/becoming a victim. Like Robert said, you must make up your mind that you will survive and you must fight with everything you can until you either:

  1. can escape
  2. incapacitate your attacker
  3. die

I also am not a huge fan of trying to control the weapon arm right off the bat; protect your vitals with less potentially lethal parts of your body, attack the CNS or vital targets ASAP, then take advantage of the momentary pause in attacks and:

  1. gain control of the weapon arm/body
  2. make space and/or put an obstacle between the two of you so you can deploy your own weapon/escape/call for help
  3. continue to do damage until you can do 1 or 2.
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I posted a thread here a few years back about getting held up at knife point. The gist of it was that myself and a buddy of mine were walking down this alleyway to take a short cut. a guy approached me on my left asking for a light. I said no sorry buddy or something to that effect. Right after this a guy started running in my direction and my focus was on him (thinking that he was going to take a swing at me). The dude who I had passed on my right sneaked up behind me and slightly pushed in a knife to my left lat .My buddy meanwhile was talking smack to the guy that had run up oblivous to the knife. He told me to come back into the Alley (I was just on the verge of exiting it) or he would stab me. I walked forward into the lit up street and my buddy followed suit. I got away with just a small cut and all my wallet lol. I’m not writing this to reflect on my super badass-ery but how switched off I was going about my day to day shit to allow some guy to get that close to me with a weapon.Since that occasion I am a lot more switched on. food for though I guess.

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[quote]law8 wrote:
I posted a thread here a few years back about getting held up at knife point. The gist of it was that myself and a buddy of mine were walking down this alleyway to take a short cut. a guy approached me on my left asking for a light. I said no sorry buddy or something to that effect. Right after this a guy started running in my direction and my focus was on him (thinking that he was going to take a swing at me). The dude who I had passed on my right sneaked up behind me and slightly pushed in a knife to my left lat .My buddy meanwhile was talking smack to the guy that had run up oblivous to the knife. He told me to come back into the Alley (I was just on the verge of exiting it) or he would stab me. I walked forward into the lit up street and my buddy followed suit. I got away with just a small cut and all my wallet lol. I’m not writing this to reflect on my super badass-ery but how switched off I was going about my day to day shit to allow some guy to get that close to me with a weapon.Since that occasion I am a lot more switched on. food for though I guess.[/quote]

About being “switched on”

I would purchase a copy of Jeff Cooper’s Principles of Personal Defense if you have not already. The technical stuff may be a bit dated, and seem specific to pistols, but the material on mindset and defense is fantastic. It is well worth the small asking price.

Regards,

Robert A

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Because the potential for injury, either of yourself or that you have done to others, is an essential part of this conversation. Here is a video from the late Paul Gomez that gives a brief rundown on the “Wyatt” protocol. It is a way of formalizing the whole idea of going back to a “thinking”/problem solving.

I have no idea if the actual acronym/order is considered “best practices” or if there are better/more current TTP’s being used by those “in the know”(idaho and Jim would be more knowledgable about that). However, the video presents a useable model for handling the “immediately afterwords” period of time.

Regards,

Robert A