Do You Owe A Debt To Society?

[quote]ephrem wrote:
The system that allows you to live your life in relative safety, that provides healthcare and education; the system that allows you to manifest your dreams, we may like to think we owe it nothing but where would most of us be without it?

[/quote]

That’s why I pay taxes to the government for the military, pay for insurance to buy healthcare and pay property taxes for my education and saved for my tuition. The system that allowed me to manifest my dreams, I’ve paid with like favors and monetary compensation for their help. What kind of debt would there be?

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
The system that allows you to live your life in relative safety, that provides healthcare and education; the system that allows you to manifest your dreams, we may like to think we owe it nothing but where would most of us be without it?

[/quote]

So what you’re saying is that the poor owe society the most since they really on these things the most? Like, perhaps they owe society certain moral and behavioral obligations. Abstaining from casual sex and multiple partners, abstaining from smoking, drinking, recreational drugs, and stuffing their faces with the newest super-duper size meal at the local fatty-burger. As in, they owe it to society to marry the baby’s mama/daddy. They owe society an intact home, with both biological parents present, in order to maximize production of the next generation of ‘debtors’ to carry the growing burden of aging ‘debtors.’ Or is this conveniently all about owing a monetary amount, in order to subsidize the poor choices of others? [/quote]

And those who use the system the least aren’t required to follow those moral/behavioral obligations you listed…?[/quote]

Those who use the system least usually do follow those obligations (at least most of them).

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
The system that allows you to live your life in relative safety, that provides healthcare and education; the system that allows you to manifest your dreams, we may like to think we owe it nothing but where would most of us be without it?

[/quote]

So what you’re saying is that the poor owe society the most since they really on these things the most? Like, perhaps they owe society certain moral and behavioral obligations. Abstaining from casual sex and multiple partners, abstaining from smoking, drinking, recreational drugs, and stuffing their faces with the newest super-duper size meal at the local fatty-burger. As in, they owe it to society to marry the baby’s mama/daddy. They owe society an intact home, with both biological parents present, in order to maximize production of the next generation of ‘debtors’ to carry the growing burden of aging ‘debtors.’ Or is this conveniently all about owing a monetary amount, in order to subsidize the poor choices of others? [/quote]

And those who use the system the least aren’t required to follow those moral/behavioral obligations you listed…?[/quote]

Those who use the system least usually do follow those obligations (at least most of them). [/quote]

You actually believe this?

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
That depends on the requirements you demand from the system.

There is no comparison between the West and North-Korea in terms of freedom and safety.

[/quote]

Oh, if I DEMAND something, thats another matter.

You play, you pay.

But, if someone provides a shitton that I never asked for and then tells me that I owe him I do not really care for it. [/quote]

Is this theory or practice? What has been provided to you you’ve never asked for?

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
The system that allows you to live your life in relative safety, that provides healthcare and education; the system that allows you to manifest your dreams, we may like to think we owe it nothing but where would most of us be without it?

[/quote]

So what you’re saying is that the poor owe society the most since they really on these things the most? Like, perhaps they owe society certain moral and behavioral obligations. Abstaining from casual sex and multiple partners, abstaining from smoking, drinking, recreational drugs, and stuffing their faces with the newest super-duper size meal at the local fatty-burger. As in, they owe it to society to marry the baby’s mama/daddy. They owe society an intact home, with both biological parents present, in order to maximize production of the next generation of ‘debtors’ to carry the growing burden of aging ‘debtors.’ Or is this conveniently all about owing a monetary amount, in order to subsidize the poor choices of others? [/quote]

Couldn’t you turn this around and say that society owes a debt too? Inner city decay during the late '60s and '70s, civil disparity, racism, no to little proper education.

Where did the vicious cycle start and how can we stem the tide [if so desired]?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
The system that allows you to live your life in relative safety, that provides healthcare and education; the system that allows you to manifest your dreams, we may like to think we owe it nothing but where would most of us be without it?

[/quote]

That’s why I pay taxes to the government for the military, pay for insurance to buy healthcare and pay property taxes for my education and saved for my tuition. The system that allowed me to manifest my dreams, I’ve paid with like favors and monetary compensation for their help. What kind of debt would there be?[/quote]

If your checkbook is balanced, then there’s no argument.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
The system that allows you to live your life in relative safety, that provides healthcare and education; the system that allows you to manifest your dreams, we may like to think we owe it nothing but where would most of us be without it?

[/quote]

So what you’re saying is that the poor owe society the most since they really on these things the most? Like, perhaps they owe society certain moral and behavioral obligations. Abstaining from casual sex and multiple partners, abstaining from smoking, drinking, recreational drugs, and stuffing their faces with the newest super-duper size meal at the local fatty-burger. As in, they owe it to society to marry the baby’s mama/daddy. They owe society an intact home, with both biological parents present, in order to maximize production of the next generation of ‘debtors’ to carry the growing burden of aging ‘debtors.’ Or is this conveniently all about owing a monetary amount, in order to subsidize the poor choices of others? [/quote]

And those who use the system the least aren’t required to follow those moral/behavioral obligations you listed…?[/quote]

Those managing to use the system least, if at all, or then funding their own debauchery. If Bill Maher wants to spend oodles on pot, women, and shiny new ‘rimz,’ he can afford it. Even so, it would appear that family, religion, and traditional values have been most preserved among the higher income. It’s the lower incomes abandoning those values. Those who can’t afford to do so.

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
The system that allows you to live your life in relative safety, that provides healthcare and education; the system that allows you to manifest your dreams, we may like to think we owe it nothing but where would most of us be without it?

[/quote]

So what you’re saying is that the poor owe society the most since they really on these things the most? Like, perhaps they owe society certain moral and behavioral obligations. Abstaining from casual sex and multiple partners, abstaining from smoking, drinking, recreational drugs, and stuffing their faces with the newest super-duper size meal at the local fatty-burger. As in, they owe it to society to marry the baby’s mama/daddy. They owe society an intact home, with both biological parents present, in order to maximize production of the next generation of ‘debtors’ to carry the growing burden of aging ‘debtors.’ Or is this conveniently all about owing a monetary amount, in order to subsidize the poor choices of others? [/quote]

Couldn’t you turn this around and say that society owes a debt too? Inner city decay during the late '60s and '70s, civil disparity, racism, no to little proper education.

Where did the vicious cycle start and how can we stem the tide [if so desired]?
[/quote]

Marriage. Stop screwing with it, stop downplaying it, stop pretending we recognize it through the state as some kind of pointless pat on the back for individual freedom. Being poor in a broken home is different than being poor with a present and hardworking father. All the entitlement state manages to do is subsidize multi-generational poverty and dysfunction. Fathers and mothers instill values that propel the next generation up to the next rung of the socio-economic ladder. So on and so on.

If I acquired property through trade, then have I not already paid my debt? Society has no part in this. I don’t owe the world for granting me the privilege of giving someone something in exchange for something else. By virtue of being open to trade myself, I contribute to societies trade-ability. Given this, I owe society as much as society owes me. I think we can just call it even here.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
The system that allows you to live your life in relative safety, that provides healthcare and education; the system that allows you to manifest your dreams, we may like to think we owe it nothing but where would most of us be without it?

[/quote]

So what you’re saying is that the poor owe society the most since they really on these things the most? Like, perhaps they owe society certain moral and behavioral obligations. Abstaining from casual sex and multiple partners, abstaining from smoking, drinking, recreational drugs, and stuffing their faces with the newest super-duper size meal at the local fatty-burger. As in, they owe it to society to marry the baby’s mama/daddy. They owe society an intact home, with both biological parents present, in order to maximize production of the next generation of ‘debtors’ to carry the growing burden of aging ‘debtors.’ Or is this conveniently all about owing a monetary amount, in order to subsidize the poor choices of others? [/quote]

And those who use the system the least aren’t required to follow those moral/behavioral obligations you listed…?[/quote]

Those who use the system least usually do follow those obligations (at least most of them). [/quote]

You actually believe this?
[/quote]

Actually…

You might want to rethink where traditional family structure and religious thought has broken down the most. It isn’t the upper class.

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
That depends on the requirements you demand from the system.

There is no comparison between the West and North-Korea in terms of freedom and safety.

[/quote]

Oh, if I DEMAND something, thats another matter.

You play, you pay.

But, if someone provides a shitton that I never asked for and then tells me that I owe him I do not really care for it. [/quote]

Is this theory or practice? What has been provided to you you’ve never asked for?
[/quote]

Consider that the means of which something is supplied can be just as important, if not more important, than the thing being supplied itself.

Being in support of education doesn’t necessarily mean you’re in support of state-run education.

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Couldn’t you turn this around and say that society owes a debt too?
[/quote]

Oh it does. It should stop celebrating a culture which undermines traditional values and family structure. Maybe Celebutante X can afford social liberalism, but Joe Schmoe can only afford it with the help of Uncle Sam.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
The system that allows you to live your life in relative safety, that provides healthcare and education; the system that allows you to manifest your dreams, we may like to think we owe it nothing but where would most of us be without it?

[/quote]

So what you’re saying is that the poor owe society the most since they really on these things the most? Like, perhaps they owe society certain moral and behavioral obligations. Abstaining from casual sex and multiple partners, abstaining from smoking, drinking, recreational drugs, and stuffing their faces with the newest super-duper size meal at the local fatty-burger. As in, they owe it to society to marry the baby’s mama/daddy. They owe society an intact home, with both biological parents present, in order to maximize production of the next generation of ‘debtors’ to carry the growing burden of aging ‘debtors.’ Or is this conveniently all about owing a monetary amount, in order to subsidize the poor choices of others? [/quote]

And those who use the system the least aren’t required to follow those moral/behavioral obligations you listed…?[/quote]

Those who use the system least usually do follow those obligations (at least most of them). [/quote]

You actually believe this?
[/quote]

You don’t?

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
The system that allows you to live your life in relative safety, that provides healthcare and education; the system that allows you to manifest your dreams, we may like to think we owe it nothing but where would most of us be without it?

[/quote]

That’s why I pay taxes to the government for the military, pay for insurance to buy healthcare and pay property taxes for my education and saved for my tuition. The system that allowed me to manifest my dreams, I’ve paid with like favors and monetary compensation for their help. What kind of debt would there be?[/quote]

If your checkbook is balanced, then there’s no argument.
[/quote]

What checkbook?

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
That depends on the requirements you demand from the system.

There is no comparison between the West and North-Korea in terms of freedom and safety.

[/quote]

Oh, if I DEMAND something, thats another matter.

You play, you pay.

But, if someone provides a shitton that I never asked for and then tells me that I owe him I do not really care for it. [/quote]

Is this theory or practice? What has been provided to you you’ve never asked for?
[/quote]

You think I asked for more than roads, bridges, courts and a fire department?

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Couldn’t you turn this around and say that society owes a debt too? Inner city decay during the late '60s and '70s, civil disparity, racism, no to little proper education.

Where did the vicious cycle start and how can we stem the tide [if so desired]?
[/quote]

Marriage. Stop screwing with it, stop downplaying it, stop pretending we recognize it through the state as some kind of pointless pat on the back for individual freedom. Being poor in a broken home is different than being poor with a present and hardworking father. All the entitlement state manages to do is subsidize multi-generational poverty and dysfunction. Fathers and mothers instill values that propel the next generation up to the next rung of the socio-economic ladder. So on and so on.
[/quote]

When did the screwing with marriage start, do you think?

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
If I acquired property through trade, then have I not already paid my debt? Society has no part in this. I don’t owe the world for granting me the privilege of giving someone something in exchange for something else. By virtue of being open to trade myself, I contribute to societies trade-ability. Given this, I owe society as much as society owes me. I think we can just call it even here.[/quote]

Yet we exist by the grace of others, don’t we? Without the [initial] support and input from others there’s very little we might achieve.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Is this theory or practice? What has been provided to you you’ve never asked for?
[/quote]

You think I asked for more than roads, bridges, courts and a fire department?[/quote]

If you believe your country should bend to your will, you’re going to have a bad time.

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Is this theory or practice? What has been provided to you you’ve never asked for?
[/quote]

You think I asked for more than roads, bridges, courts and a fire department?[/quote]

If you believe your country should bend to your will, you’re going to have a bad time.
[/quote]

That is not the point.

You cannot force stuff on me I never asked for and then wax on poetically what “I owe society”.

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
If I acquired property through trade, then have I not already paid my debt? Society has no part in this. I don’t owe the world for granting me the privilege of giving someone something in exchange for something else. By virtue of being open to trade myself, I contribute to societies trade-ability. Given this, I owe society as much as society owes me. I think we can just call it even here.[/quote]

Yet we exist by the grace of others, don’t we? Without the [initial] support and input from others there’s very little we might achieve.
[/quote]

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.